| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| aqati |
Posted - 12/20/2011 : 4:10:44 PM
I recently read in the bylaws about choice of tables:
"Each Host Location may designate the table to be used for League matches. If the Host Location does not
designate a specific table, the team captains should agree on which table to use. If the captains cannot reach an
agreement through negotiation and compromise, the home team will select the table. Any size table may be used,
except in Higher Level Tournaments. Teams may not choose different size tables from week to week for strategic
purposes the same size table must be used all session, if available."
What usually ends up happening is that the home team chooses the table. In my opinion, this can create an unfair advantage for the home team. They may already have an advantage at winning the flip and choosing which team puts up first. Both teams are subject to the same condition of the table (level, condition of felt, condition of rails, warping of the slate, etc). However, the advantage still comes to the home team. This is because - A: they usually practice on the table they are planning to play on, and if there are multiple tables, they have the away team practice on a different table - B: the home team may know which rails are bad, how the balls roll towards certain pockets...in general, the personality of the table.
Practicing on a table prior to a game helps. If one team plays on a table, they know how it is playing that day (slow, fast, etc). The opposing team must adjust their play IN the game while the home team has already adjusted their play prior to the night of the game. We all know that tables can play different from day to day. We all know that no two tables are alike. We all know that there are certain factors that usually remain constant (table roll, dead rails). I have seen teams intentionally pick a table that is not in as good of condition as other tables because they know how the table rolls, how the rails hit, that it rolls funny, etc.
"... but the home teams must decide between themselves (through negotiation and compromise) which match is played on which table. It is not acceptable for one team to claim a specific table just because they played on that table in a previous week." This seems to be exactly what happens. More accurately, one team will come in and start practicing on a table. Since other tables are available, the other team may go practice on a different table. The home team will then pick they table THEY have been practicing on. Even if a reminder is put out, some teams lack the sportsmanship to be fair and honest about table choice (as seen by their actions both on and off the tables). It is difficult at best to accuse someone of this, especially if your evidence isn't concrete.
All this is boiling to a question/suggestion. Would it be possible to change the rules of the flip at the beginning of the match? Instead of just having who chooses whom to put up first, how about something with who chooses the table to play on? Perhaps something like this:
The team that wins the flip will choose, between the two teams, who will put up the first player. Player put-up will then alternate each match between the two teams (this is already the rule). (Add-on) The team that loses the flip will choose the table (or tables should it be necessary to go to two tables) in which the matches will be held.
This will then create an advantage for each team. While the home team will still have an advantage (playing on their tables constantly), this may negate some of the advantage. This may also apply to multiple teams that play out of the same place. If a team knows they have home advantage with choice of table, they may pick out and practice on the game table prior to game night. This rule would at least decrease their advantage, as they would have to practice on multiple tables.
This rule would only have to be applicable to local bylaws. Is this something that is feasible? |
| 9 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| aqati |
Posted - 12/22/2011 : 11:08:23 PM
Fair enough Phil. I can see where you are coming from, although I see tables chosen in certain places because of the home team's ability to play better on that table using the conditions to their advantage. I do not play someplace where factors such as proximity to the bar/door really come into play on table choice, so that opens my eyes a little more.
All in all, I trust your experience and you won't hear a peep from me about this again. I am satisfied with your reasoning. Thank you Moose Dragon and Showtime for your input and courtesy. |
| Phil |
Posted - 12/22/2011 : 9:30:21 PM
Sometimes I like to watch threads like this before I reply so as not to stifle the discussion, but I think this one has pretty much run its course.
We won't be changing the bylaws regarding choice of tables, for a few reasons. First, in the years I've been running this league I've seen teams choose a particular table for a variety of reasons - good lighting, good cloth, next to the door, next to the bar, good seating around the table, room around the table to shoot, etc. Basically, it's the one they like to play league on. I have only seen one reason for a team to think they might get a competitive advantage on a table - tight pockets. On a couple of occasions, when I thought the pockets were a bit TOO tight (to the point where they might have an impact on skill levels), I have asked the location not to let teams use those tables. Other than that, teams choose the table they like, just as they choose the location they like. I see no reason to diminish their enjoyment by forcing them to play on a table they find less desirable.
Second, changing the rule could produce many instances where a team chooses a table simply because they know it's NOT the one the other team likes. Choosing a table becomes gamesmanship, something we'd rather not have to deal with.
Third, and most importantly, it would only be a matter of time before more locations started asserting their rights to assign the table, and guess what? They will assign the table the home team wants, and we would be right back where we are today. Thus, no reason to change.
If you're worried about having to practice on a different table, why couldn't you just ask to practice on the league table when you get there? Most teams I know would accommodate your request. If they don't, well, at least you know what you're dealing with.
Phil
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| Moose Dragon |
Posted - 12/22/2011 : 10:21:13 AM
qati,
It is not that I disagree with your concern I just don't see it as that big of a deal. I am O.K. with the home team having an advantage. We play half the matches at home and half away, so one team always has home table advantage. Some advantages are more extreme then others depending on table condition or size. Taking this advantage away either by rule or coin flip in my opinion would be wrong.
I agree with Showtime in the fact that who puts up first is usually only a slight advantage or disadvantage.
I have found that the vast majority of the players in the APA don't know how or don't think to take advantage of the condition of a table. Also how long does it take for a team to learn the table it will be playing 20 or more games on? In my experience most players learn the basics of the table in the first few shots. Sure there will be funny rolls that you don't expect, but dead rails and speed are the main conditions most players concern themselves with. As a higher level player I take it upon myself to watch the games and comment to my players what I see. Whether it is a dead rail, unlevel table, or whatever the conditions are I try to communicate it to them.
I have played in some very lowlife bars and on some really bad tables. I don't enjoy it as much during those matches, but I don't think for me it has ever not been fun. I am sorry you can't find a way to have fun when playing on bad tables.
Trying to compare our home table advantage to home field, court, or rink advantage of the professional's is absurd. There are far more advantages for the pros to be at home then for us. For one thing we don't travel across country to play an away game, just across town.
I to think it is refreshing to see 2 people debate something without it turning into mudslinging. I commend both of you for showing your intelligence rather then your emotion.
These are the opinons of this poster and are not necessarily shared by me or anyone else. |
| aqati |
Posted - 12/21/2011 : 6:48:26 PM
BTW Showtime, throughout our conversation/discussion/debate (as it has seemed to evolve into) I wanted to thank you for your courtesy. I find it common that if I debate/discuss something with someone who has a different viewpoint than I do, they end up getting mad and start insulting me. Intelligence only goes so far with some people, and yours must go a long way. |
| aqati |
Posted - 12/21/2011 : 6:29:21 PM
This isn't about playoffs, so comments directly relating to playoffs are inconsequential. However, to solve the problems relating to this issue, playoffs should be at the location of the higher-placing team. Regardless, this has been about regular season in general with playoffs as an afterthough.
Let's face it, home location DOES create an advantage. Every place I have played at has one size of play tables at that location. One has 9' tables, one has 8' tables, and one has 7' tables. One team will practice on one size table all season long and have to adjust to the other size table EVERY TIME (it would be unreasonable to expect everyone to practice at all the locations, considering the economy, especially when free or discounted pool is sometimes, or always, offered by their home location). By your own admission this an unfair advantage. Again, whether it is playoffs or regular season is inconsequential.
The advantage REALLY comes into play when you have multiple teams out of one location playing against a team from a different location. Let us say that you have a division of 12 teams. 10 are out of the same location, with the remaining two at different locations. Whenever those 10 teams play each other, it is like playing a home game. They are all adjusted to the play tables as that is also where they practice (and they would be fools not to practice on every table that has been designated by the establishment for play). It makes no difference to them which tables are played on. There is NO advantage for either team in regards to table choice, yet you say there should be an advantage. Even in playoffs this should be mitigated as much as possible to ENSURE the best team reprents each division at the next level, NOT the team that can play better on THEIR home table.
Let us say that one of the two teams that plays at a different location (team A) plays one of the 10 teams (team B) at team B's home location. Team A plays on 7' tables while team B plays on 9' tables. By your admission team B has an advantage already, purely through home location. Now you have 2 advantages by home team, one from pool table size (from your account an unfair advantage) and the other from table choice (by my account an unfair advantage). Higher SLs usually have enough experience with different sized tables that they can adjust fairly quickly. This is more than a league for higher SL players though. This is a league for beginners as well. Do you REALLY expect me to believe that a SL 2 or 3 player that practices on a 7 table will play as well as an equal SL player on a 9 table, when that other player practices on a 9 table? Sometimes, but not likely. However, choice of table CAN mitigate that advantage.
You are correct in that SL is not an advantage (at least not SUPPOSED to be). That is what the equalizer system is for, to take away better players' ADVANTAGE. This now, as initially intended, has validity in backing the logic in this argument.
Following that logic, all advantages should be eliminated as much as possible. This of course has to fall into reason. It is reasonable to expect first place to get location advantage, but it doesn't always happen, (sometimes unavoidable). Taking that logic to conclusion, by your own admission of unfair advantage due to table size, the away team should choose the table. I was not saying that the away team should choose (although after conversing with you I think that to be a better idea). I am saying that it would decrease the chances of an unfair advantage by allowing the loser of the flip to choose table.
The rules could be changed to allow the away team to choose the table to play on as we have logically concluded. Each team should be practicing on every table that can be used in play at their home location regardless. The rules could be changed to what I had originally suggested (loser of the flip chooses the table). Or they could be left as is.
I think this is for Phil and Taz to decide. After the level of playoffs, tables for play are decided for you, so both teams are at an advantage (or disadvantage), negating the need for this rule (hence a bylaw). |
| Showtime |
Posted - 12/21/2011 : 1:09:12 PM
The answer to how to make sure you always get home table advantage is simple, never lose/always take first place. I understand, the answer is easier then the act.
I can understand that a location can have more then one table, and that each table can play a little differently. Why should the away team get the advantage? The higher placed team should have an advantage. However, if they played on a smaller table all season and then want to play on a bigger table in the playoffs, I'll agree, that is an unfair advantage. Again, if they played on a bigger table all season and then want to play on a smaller table in the playoffs, I'll agree, that is an unfair advantage.
Now, If they played on any table during a season as the home team, they should have the right to play on any of those same tables.
During the first week of playoffs, we ran into a similar situation. We were the home team. The team we were facing would have been at a greater disadvantage had we played on a bigger table. I checked with my team to see if we had played on the bigger table as the home team. Everyone said, "we hadn't," as I suspected. So, we stuck to the table we always shot on, the smaller table.
In your situation, how would be fair to the higher placing team if one location were to host two playoff teams that were facing each other and the lower placing team got to choose the table they wanted? What if the table was a different size table then the table the higher placing team always played on? What if the table was a different size table then the table the lower placing team always played on?
You even said, "This is SUPPOSED to be a league where the ONLY advantage is your skill level." Skill level is supposed to be the Level not an advantage, but that has nothing to do with this. During the season don't you play several away matches, where the home team may pick an size table in the bar? Isn't that an advantage to the home team?
The fairest way is too let the home team decide on a table to play, one that they had played on during the regular season as a home team.
If I disagree with you, it is because I am right. |
| aqati |
Posted - 12/21/2011 : 10:50:40 AM
Overall, I think these statements we have made show that you don't like the idea, and I obviously like the idea. There are rules people don't like, but if we want to play we have to embrace them. The final say is up to Phil and Taz. They have to decide if this idea will make play better for ALL parties involved.
Phil/Taz, anything to add? |
| aqati |
Posted - 12/21/2011 : 10:32:14 AM
Please explain to me this "make sure you always have home table advantage." I am unsure what you mean by that.
"Here in the APA home location really doesn't make a difference. The pool table is equivalent to home field advantage." I would agree and disagree. If your home location has 7' tables and the away location has 9' tables (or 8' tables), that can already be an advantage for the home team, especially the lower SL players, so home location does make a difference. There usually are not many people cheering on the home team, so that does not make a difference.
In Baseball, the only advantage is having the home crowd. The bases remain the same size/distance. The equipment has to meet the same specs. There are only three fields left that DON'T have the same surfaces (and they are waiting for new stadiums to be built to shift to the same playing surfaces as everyone else). Having a shorter/longer distance to hit a homerun does not matter because both teams have to hit the same distance. The same can be said for Football. I have seen teams that choose to receive in the second half win just as much as receive in the first half. As an equalizer, the losing team chooses which goal to go for (usually based off wind, direction of the setting sun, etc). Those surfaces are transitioning to the same surfaces as well, and equipment specifications and field size are required to be the same. Neither of those sports are fair comparisons.
I do like hockey. All equipment and playing sizes are the same, but the surface can vary. It can affect both teams. The home team does have an advantage both with the crowd AND with practice on the playing surface. HOWEVER, the opposing team must be allowed to practice on the same surface. That is aimed to mitigate that advantage for the home team.
"Therefore, the only advantage a home team has is picking the table they get to play on."
I believe that is two advantages.
"If the away team got to pick the table the match was to be played on, it would take away the reason the home team got home table advantage."
EXACTLY (other than still having the table size advantage). This is SUPPOSED to be a league where the ONLY advantage is your skill level. HOW can you accurately judge someone's skill level if there is an advantage for one person because of the table they play on? People complain about players being too low of a skill level, or that players are sandbagging. I have witnessed a player consistently play fantastic on one size table, while consistenly playing poorly on another size table. He wasn't sandbagging. He had a mental block that was instilled in him by his father over certain sized tables. It didn't help him that the rails were dead and the table played slower than he was used to (especially when there were other tables in better condition that played more to what a table should play).
"When has a home team ever given the away team the opportunity to pick the venue?"
The venue has already been set, there is no choice in that. That is why they have the "Home" location. They already HAVE an advantage JUST by being at home and practicing on the home tables. Now you would give them two advantages (the second a much bigger advantage) by choosing a table that the other team finds it difficult at best to play on. This happens sometimes, not always. I can't speak for everyone else, but I get free play at my home location, so I practice there instead of other places, and I practice on ALL the tables. It could be too costly for me to practice at all locations that we play at. The home team can practice on all the play tables during the week, so why would it hurt for the away team to pick the table? If both teams are out of the same place, then it shouldn't matter what table is picked, they should be able to play on all of them. Either way, this ensure there is the smallest advantage possible for either team, and skill along with how a person is playing will dictate who wins, not choice of table.
This is supposed to be a league to play for fun while still being competitive. I don't know about you, but when I play on a table where it rolls really funny and the rails die, giving the opponent a huge advantage because they know the table, I don't have fun. I also find it much harder to be competitive in that arena. |
| Showtime |
Posted - 12/21/2011 : 12:44:36 AM
If you don't like the rules/"unfair advantage," make sure you always have home table advantage.
Let's face it, unlike other sports (i.e. football, basketball, hockey), where home location is an advantage. Here in the APA home location really doesn't make a difference. The pool table is equivalent to home field advantage.
In a sport like football, a team will have home field advantage, then they flip for who will receive the kick/ defer to the second half and/or which end of the field they will defend. If you count, there are 3 things in football that are considered, 2 in favor of the home team, 1 for the away team.
In baseball and hockey, there is no coin flip and the advantage is home field/ice.
Next, the flip in APA for who puts up first, really doesn't matter either, unless you don't have all your players there. I've seen the team that puts up first win nights as often as the teams that put up second.
Therefore, the only advantage a home team has is picking the table they get to play on.
If the away team got to pick the table the match was to be played on, it would take away the reason the home team got home table advantage.
When has a home team ever given the away team the opportunity to pick the venue?
Sorry, I am completely against this idea.
If I disagree with you, it is because I am right. |
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