| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| trhxke |
Posted - 10/18/2006 : 7:33:15 PM
We had this situation come up the other night in 8 ball and was wondering just what kind of understanding there is on it.
Two players are down to the last 2 balls on the table.
Player A has "Ball in Hand" and is now shooting the 8
Player B has only the 12 ball left of his suit then he would also be on the 8.
The 12 is frozen to the long rail and the 8 is very close to the 12 and the rail but not touching either.
As coach and score keeper I mentioned to player A that the the 12 is frozen and he acknowledged that he agreed that the 12 was frozen on the rail.
He then proceeds to shoot the 8 directly into the 12 very softly and the 8 stricks the 12 and stops, the cue ball also stops with out striking another ball or a rail.
I called a "No Rail" foul because nothing touched a rail except the 12 which was already frozen to the rail BEFORE the shot and before the attempted safe.
Player A disagreed saying he hit his object ball (The 8) and the 8 hit the 12 and that should be a fair and good safe.
Any opinions or is this a clear call and am I missing something here?
Tom Hardinger
www.BigRigToys.com
Your Internet Source for pool cues, darts and various colletibles. |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Karambola |
Posted - 12/26/2006 : 9:35:46 PM
"Interesting " |
| Taz |
Posted - 12/01/2006 : 3:06:40 PM
Movistar, you are incorrect (as was Richard). Perhaps in one of the other leagues you participate in it works that way; however, it does not in APA. Richard contacted the National Office to get a ruling on this and found out our ruling was correct. The APA Team Manual is very clear on this, it states in part:
"ANY ball must go to a rail (a pocketed ball counts as a rail) AFTER LEGAL contact". In this scenario, as described, no ball travelled to a rail (the object ball made contact with another ball, but nothing was driven to a rail) and no ball was pocketed. The shot resulted in a BIH foul.
I would be interested to know which sanctioned league or organization considers a ball that is frozen to a rail to be part of the rail. |
| movistar |
Posted - 11/30/2006 : 1:42:38 PM
anyone who agrees with Richard is CORRECT.......
it doesn't matter how many balls are FROZEN to the rail as long as the OBJECT ball is NOT frozen !
according to the rules, if the OBJECT ball (the eight) is not frozen to the rail and if it contacts a rail after being struck by the cue ball, it is a GOOD HIT !!!
any ball frozen to the rail becomes a PART OF THE RAIL and thus is considered part of the rail ! 
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| BigSi |
Posted - 10/20/2006 : 11:53:28 AM
Come on guys, don't make this anymore complicated than it needs to be. FORGET that any balls are frozen it does not matter much, bottom line in order for there to be a legal hit Any ball must hit a rail after contact unless you pocket a ball (presuming that the hit was good in the first place) please correct me if i'm wrong.....Simon |
| Phil |
Posted - 10/19/2006 : 6:52:55 PM
How can a ball be part of a rail? They're not even made of the same material!!!
Bad hit - gotta drive something to a permanent piece of the rail...
Phil
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| Torsten |
Posted - 10/19/2006 : 4:57:46 PM
I think my brain just exploded.... thanks for the clarification, Phil. I failed to realize that the player had agreed to the fact the ball was frozen on the rail.
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy." |
| rhaydt |
Posted - 10/19/2006 : 3:40:34 PM
In this scenario the frozen ball is NOT the object ball. The 8-ball is the object ball and it is not frozen to a rail or the 12-ball. So I do not understand how the frozen ball rule applies. If the 8-ball was frozen to the 12-ball then the frozen ball rule would apply. |
| Taz |
Posted - 10/19/2006 : 3:26:13 PM
Official APA Team Manual - Fouls page 50d.
".....Once it is agreed that the ball is frozen, then the player must either drive the object ball to another rail (of course, it could hit another ball, which in turn hits a rail), or drive the cue ball to the rail after it touches the object ball. If the latter method of safety is chosen then the player should take care that he quite obviously strikes the object ball first. If the cue ball strikes the rail first or appears to hit both the rail and ball simultaneously, then it would be a foul unless either the cue ball or object ball went to some other rail."
Official ruling for your scenario (both locally and upper level tournaments) - FOUL - BIH for opponent |
| trhxke |
Posted - 10/19/2006 : 2:32:00 PM
OK, Richard that is where it is not clear to me again.
What does Phil say to this and what would be the ruling from an APA official at an upper level tournament?
Tom Hardinger
www.BigRigToys.com
Your Internet Source for pool cues, darts and various colletibles. |
| rhaydt |
Posted - 10/19/2006 : 2:09:28 PM
I would consider the shot to be legal. When a ball is frozen to a rail it is considered part of the rail. Since the 8-ball was the object ball, not the 12-ball, hitting the 8-ball into the 12-ball counts as a rail. According to APA rule book and every other rule book I have seen the "frozen ball" rule only comes into play when the ball on the rail is the object ball. |
| trhxke |
Posted - 10/19/2006 : 10:17:49 AM
Thanks for that clarification too Phil.
Tom Hardinger
www.BigRigToys.com
Your Internet Source for pool cues, darts and various colletibles. |
| Phil |
Posted - 10/19/2006 : 10:07:11 AM
Careful with the "call goes to the shooter" Torsten. It sounds like player A acknowledged that (1) the 12 ball was frozen to the rail PRIOR to the shot, and (2) neither the cue ball or the 8-ball hit a rail during the shot. In this case the call would go the other way. Just because a player thought the shot was legal doesn't make it so. The only time the "call goes to the shooter" is when there is disagreement about what actually happened during the shot.
Phil
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| trhxke |
Posted - 10/19/2006 : 09:34:42 AM
As it turned out, the game progressed in such a way that Player A won the game and match making the call immaterial to the final out come.
I just feel better knowing that the rule was understood and was correctly applied and the result was untainted by the disagreement on how that rule applied to that situation.
Thanks everyone for your input.
I love the simplicity and complexity of this game!
Tom Hardinger
www.BigRigToys.com
Your Internet Source for pool cues, darts and various colletibles. |
| Torsten |
Posted - 10/19/2006 : 09:22:27 AM
Tom
Your interpretation is 100% correct. Here's the problem. The player clearly thought what he was doing was within the rules. Since there was no third eye, the call goes to the shooter. Tommy, you and I have been captains for a long time, and play on a lot of teams. Due to our experience, we are fairly well versed in the rules. We can't make that assumption of all other players. If a similar table situation arises in the future, it may be a good idea to quickly explain the frozen ball rule to the shooter and/or to get a third eye to make a ruling on the validity of the hit.
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy." |
| BigSi |
Posted - 10/19/2006 : 07:34:52 AM
Hey Tom, The rule states that after legal contact any ball on the table must hit a rail, End of story. In your situation striking the 8 into a frozen 12 either the 12 must then contact a different rail (than what it was frozen to) or the 8 must strike a rail or lastly the Cue-ball must strike a rail after contact.... Bottom line if none of the above happened ball in hand to player B.
Simon |
