| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| poolguy |
Posted - 11/28/2007 : 11:22:13 AM
In addition to the APA I play in a league in the westside of LA that is basically APA rules but without that specific set of rules. So, what I'm asking is what would be the ruling in APA play if this happened. (We did have it happen but the powers that be couldn't agree on what the penalty should be ... because the rules are not very clear. The APA rule states that a scratch when "playing" the 8-ball is a loss, whereas our rules state that a scratch when "shooting" at the 8-ball is a loss. Some folks felt that since the cue hit the cue ball it was clearly a shot, but others felt the opposite.)
The shooter had ball in hand, and shot her 7th ball (8-ball) and the cue traveled very near a pocket. As she was walking over to get ready to shoot the 8-ball, her cue dropped from her hand and hit the cue ball. Clearly a foul. But the cue ball dropped into the pocket. Would this be loss of game in the APA ... a scratch?
(Clearly, our rules need updating to be more clear and accurate.)
Thanks.
John
It only hurts if you miss. |
| 10 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Kerry Randolph |
Posted - 11/30/2007 : 2:40:50 PM
AHA, so it was Colonel Mustard in the Billiard room with the cue stick.
It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt |
| Torsten |
Posted - 11/30/2007 : 12:24:44 AM
YEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSS! I was actually fairly close to being right. ::doing happy dance:: Woohoo!
All kidding aside, the way Taz puts it is the ONLY way for a league like ours, which emphasizes simple and pure concepts. Sportsmanship, and love of the game.
I think the worst time to have a heart attack would be during a game of charades... or during a game of fake heart attack. |
| Taz |
Posted - 11/29/2007 : 8:18:09 PM
Official ruling (based on the scenario as originally described in the opening post)
1) Ball-in-hand foul. The cue ball IS always alive.
2) No loss of game. You cannot scratch on a shot until you are actually executing/attempting the shot.
Please remember what our league is about. Relax, enjoy yourself and play within the Spirit of the Rules as well as the written rule. It is impossible to cover every situation 100% with rules. Common sense must prevail. Teams that try to gain advantage by creating their own interpretations are subject to sportsmanship violations. Win at the table and not from the chair is a generality that promotes harmony, camaraderie and good times. |
| poolguy |
Posted - 11/29/2007 : 6:40:13 PM
Torsten, you are talking about exactly what are the discussion points in our league. Our rules say "shooting" ... which is more easy to say she wasn't in the act of doing than the APA rules which say "playing".
I would argue that you are "playing the 8-ball" during the entire time you are at the table, whether you're sipping your drink, lining up a shot, what have you. With that "definition", would you say that the player scratched? I would think an official ruling would be that if the cue ball goes into a pocket, whether hit by the cue (legal stroke or not), your hand, a bridge, a piece of chalk, etc., that it is a scratch and loss of game. But I'm new to APA and just do not know. Let's see what Taz and/or Phil have to say.
By the way, I think the chances of this happening are literally millions to one. The player would have to a klutz, would have to have a cue ball close to a pocket, would have to "on the 8-ball", and would have to drop the cue. I'm in my 60s and I've seen a cue dropped only a handful of times (mostly with the use of a bridge, and the player is usually pretty good about not being close to the cue ball in those situations). So, this is more of an academic question that one that will be useful in future calls.
John
It only hurts if you miss. |
| Torsten |
Posted - 11/29/2007 : 12:06:11 PM
I can't wait for Taz and Phil's response...
I've read the rules and they don't really address this specific occurrence.
Anyway, if Taz and Phil were not available and I was asked as a division rep to make a call, this is what it would be.
The cue ball is always live, and any disturbance of it not resulting in a legal hit is a foul. The rule book does say a scratch when "playing the 8" is a loss of game. Now, the question is, when the cue slipped from the player's hands, was she addressing or beginning to address the white ball? If so, it can be reasonably ascertained that she was "playing" the 8. However, if she was strolling over to where she was going to stand, and a momentary loss of balance caused her cue to slip from her grasp and knock the white in, that shouldn't be considered "playing" the eight. Say she put her cue down, started walking to take a sip of Sprite before taking the 8 ball shot, slipped on an ice cube, grabbed onto the table to keep from falling, in the process knocking the white ball in. That certainly wouldn't be "playing the 8". Would it?
As we so often say, common sense should apply, as the rule book cannot possibly cover every nuance. My call would be, ball in hand to the opponent, but certainly not a loss of game.
I think the worst time to have a heart attack would be during a game of charades... or during a game of fake heart attack. |
| trhxke |
Posted - 11/28/2007 : 4:59:53 PM
I agreed with Jack.
It is supposed to be fun and if this happened in some circumstances it would be time to pull out the rule book...but...in situation as described just do the polite thing, put the balls back and let her shoot.
Tom Hardinger
www.BigRigToys.com
Your Internet Source for pool cues, cases, table accessories, darts and various collectibles.
www.myspace.com/bigrigtom |
| jackmurray |
Posted - 11/28/2007 : 4:35:57 PM
I understand the “live” cue ball rule pretty well but am not sure what rule(s) John is familiar with. Anyway, when trying to picture this taking place I can’t help but seeing the player walking around the table and having (1) the stick come out of her hand, (2) the stick fall on the cue ball, (3) the cue ball fall in the pocket, and (4) all while being on the 8-Ball. Could anything else go wrong? The girl in this example probably hasn’t even called or marked (depending on their rules) a pocket. This seems more like a freak accident than a “foul” (I realize that doesn't really matter). If I did this I guess I might call it the match and shake my opponent’s hand. Then I'd probably laugh and increase my drinking. If my opponent did this, particularly a new player, and depending on what really happened- or I should say “how it happened”, it seems that it might be a pretty reasonable and sportsmanlike thing to do to put the balls back where they were (if I knew where) and let them continue. The logical correct “by the book” answer to me (which usually means that this will be wrong) is one of two possibilities; (1) Ball in hand for the opponent or (2) Game for the opponent. Number 2 seems more correct than number 1 (to me) but if the circumstances were just right, and nobody was going to get hurt, I’d rather put the balls back and play some pool! Of course this resolution may change proportionally to the opponent’s skill level.  |
| Kerry Randolph |
Posted - 11/28/2007 : 3:38:56 PM
Jack, The cue ball is always live. If you drop the chalk while chalking your cue and it hits and moves the cue ball even a fraction of an inch it is a foul. If you have ball in hand and you are picking up or putting down the cue ball and bump another ball with the cue ball, well then give the cue ball to your opponent it is ball in hand for them.
One time my opponent scratched and grabbed the ball before it went all the way down and handed it across the table to me. I took it and was looking at where I was going to put it at the same time. I dropped the cue ball on the table. No harm yet it didn't hit anything, but in my panic to grab it I knocked it across the table and into several balls. I just laughed and gave it right back to my opponent. So be careful around the cue ball. There is no rule saying if you bump it, it is O.K. to just put it back and carry on. The APA rule book is very specific about cue ball fouls.
It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt |
| jackmurray |
Posted - 11/28/2007 : 2:41:37 PM
I think this is a great scenario and I look forward to seeing some opinions on this one. The easy thing to do here is look it up in the rulebook. So I’m not going to do that and try to wing it and see if common sense works here (or if I even have any). I don’t believe that “since the cue hit the cue ball” that “it is clearly a shot” but I’m not sure that (that) matters. I’m also not sure where in the rulebook it says that the cue ball is always “live” but we use that expression almost weekly and if that’s true then that IS a scratch (by rule). Since the cue ball then dropped into the pocket and the player was in fact on the 8-Ball, and if we’re being a “stickler” on the rules, contrary to Kerry I believe this would be a loss of game. And – a pretty terrible way to lose…
Now the way the scenario is stated (“As she was walking over to get ready to shoot the 8-ball”), it seems that maybe she was “walking” and not exactly “shooting” so if possible, maybe being a good sport and putting the balls back where they were and allow her to continue shooting might be the better route to take.
This appears to me to be a perfect example of the “you had to be there” cliché and reminds me of the unfortunate scenario of the non-participating bar patron (could be known or unknown, league player or observer, etc) that bumps into a player in the middle of their shot and affects the outcome of the game.
If this happened on league night the right thing to do might be to first reach into one’s back pocket and refer to the rulebook (because as the league office knows we all carry them); if that didn’t work, look around for a division rep; and as a last resort, call the office for a ruling.
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| Kerry Randolph |
Posted - 11/28/2007 : 1:35:24 PM
This should create a few answers. I do not beleive it is loss of game. There was no actual shot made or attempted. I believe the intent of the rules would apply here. Ball in hand for her opponent.
It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt |
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