| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| trhxke |
Posted - 01/26/2008 : 1:34:57 PM
This situation arose in our 9 ball match last week and I would like a better understanding of how it is view by the APA in both regular league play and upper level competition....
Our player (skill level 3) was gettting ready to shoot a long straight in shot on the ball just before the nine ball ( I don't remember the actual ball number) but as score keeper and coach I was sitting 2 pub tables away from the pool table in a crowded bar with people constantly passing between me and the pool table.
I stood and walked aroung the two pub tables and up behind the shooter, standing about 3 feet behind the shooter so I could see the table and how she was lining up the shot. She was not aware that I was there and I did not speak to her. I remained at that position quitely watching the shot and once she executed I walked back to my seat without speaking to the player.
The shooter of the other team came over to me and told me we should be charged with a time out because I had "approached the table and had remained there throughout the shot". That if I had not agreed with the way the shooter was lining up on the shot I would have call a time out.
I agreed that I considered calling a time out but as I watched the shooter line up I decided it was not necessary to interupt the game.
I disagreed that I should be required to mark a time out because I had not spoken to the shooter nor had I made my position known to the shooter but I also told the opponent that we could mark a time out if that would make her happy, after all we had not taken a time out in that rack even though we were allowed 2. No big deal on my part and no real impact to out come of that rack, the score or the match.
Then I started to think about the scenario, what if the time out thing were to be a factor to either team and next time it may very well make a difference in winning or losing the match...then it would be a big deal.
Bottom line is:
What constitutes approaching the table and at what point would it be a problem for the coach to closely observe the way a shooter is setting up on a shot....then does the other team have the right to insist that a time out be charged and on what grounds?
Tom Hardinger
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| 8 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Phil |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 3:10:34 PM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by poolguy[/i]
[br]I looked very hard at the Team Manual and didn't see anything at all about "approaching the table". What it says is that the coach is the only person who can talk to the player, but the coach can get input from others on the team (my words, as a paraphrase).
In the bylaws it states that only the coach or the shooter may approach the table during a time out. It also says that if anyone other than the shooter suggests a time out then one should be charged. The suggestion of a time out doesn't necessarily have to be verbal - anything that might indicate to the player that the coach has some concerns can be considered a suggestion. So, if the player doesn't notice the coach behind them, I would not consider that suggesting a time out.
Phil
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| Torsten |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 1:37:48 PM
Personally, I agree with Richard. They're probably being a bit harsh with their interpretation. I've seen plenty of worse ways that coaches and teammates have infringed past the timeout versus just trying to see the table, including several poorly disguised cheers of encouragement. For example:
Choice between a cut or bank shot: Team member says, "No worries, you got this! It's like money in the BANK."
Here's one of my favorites. You have a lower skill rank deciding between a couple of options on the table and one of the teammates says to the captain, just loud enough for anyone in this hemisphere to hear, "Gee, I sure hope she shoots the SIX BALL!!!"
And one that I actually found clever. This, for reasons that will become obvious, works better in 8 ball when you're shooting at solids. Anyway, scenario is this. Inexperienced, but pretty good shot playing at the table. Makes a shot. The captain loudly says, "NICE SHOT!!!", and claps. Sounds encouraging, right? Well, it became apparent to me that the clapping was inconsistent. Sometimes it was brief, other times it was longer. I realized that the captain was clapping the amount of times on the number of the next ball he wanted his player to shoot. Three claps. Shoot the three ball. Six claps, shoot the six ball. Coincidence? Not on your life. Only when his players were shooting solids, only with the lower skill levels, and spot on each time. Over the course of about 50 shots, the chance of coincidence goes bye bye.
I can go on all day.
I think the worst time to have a heart attack would be during a game of charades... or during a game of fake heart attack. |
| Kerry Randolph |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 09:30:07 AM
Phil has discussed this several times either on here or at a captains meeting. What I have gotten from those discussions is that a coach can do what ever he/she wants during a timeout with out going outside his/her time constraints, with the exception of disturbing the cue ball. If you want to walk around the bar and talk to 15 different people for 3 seconds each and then tell your player what to do in the final 15 seconds that is your perogitive. As we all now no one takes any more then 1 minute for a time out!
What I usually see happen. If a player other then the coach wants to add some input to the time out he signals in some way to the coach to come over and they discuss it away from the table.
I have heard of a team several years ago that would have several team members gather around the table to discuss a shot that could not be made and when they broke from the table that unmakable shot was amazingly makable. They used the people to block the view of everyone else and slighlty moved the balls so the shot was makable. So I hear, I never saw anything like that, so it is just hearsay.
It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt |
| poolguy |
Posted - 01/28/2008 : 11:06:47 PM
I looked very hard at the Team Manual and didn't see anything at all about "approaching the table". What it says is that the coach is the only person who can talk to the player, but the coach can get input from others on the team (my words, as a paraphrase).
I would agree that if a coach got up and walked to the table (approached it) and the player saw this, that it should be a coaching time out. The act of approaching would raise questions in the players's mind, etc.
But let me throw another wrinkle into the mix. Last week, our highest ranking player called a time out for a '4'. I knew I could talk to the coach, so I talked directly to him, and went to the table to point out what I thought should be done. Then I sat down, and the coach evidently agreed with me because he told the player to make the shot I suggested. The other team said something about me not being allowed at the table. So, what am I allowed to do, as a non-coach? Do I have to yell to the coach and have him come over to me? I just want to do the right thing. Thanks.
John
It only hurts if you miss. |
| trhxke |
Posted - 01/28/2008 : 12:30:36 PM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by jackmurray[/i]
[br]I think we all know that the coach does not ever have a right to go stand behind the cueball, check out the possibilities and then decide whether or not to call a timeout...
I see that sort of thing happening all the time Jack.
I never thought it worth making a remark about, after all we are trying to help the lesser skilled players learn, aren't we?
Not too long ago I watched the coach stand behind his Skill level 2, grasp the butt of the cue and guide the cue into line for the shot then continue to site over her shoulder while she attempted to keep the cue in line. Just as she was going into her final stroke teh coach reached out and grasp the butt of the cue.....?@#%@#%^
I don't honestly know how.... but... she still made that shot.
I naturally came out of my seat and expressed my displeasure with that event.
This was NOT the same scenario that I described in my original post. In my case the shooter never knew I was there, she was on the 8th of 9 balls, it was a simple straight in shot and almost impossible to miss the shot. I was simply concerned that if she did not line up correctly she "MIGHT NOT" get a decent leave on the Nine.
She had 2 times outs available and I decided not to bother her so I stayed motionless until after the shot. I then went back to my seat with out even speaking to the shooter.
I then conceeded to the opponent shooter that a time out could be marked, no contest....
It's just that the next time it may be more critical so I figured it is now a good time to clarify what constitutes "Approaching the Table"
Tom Hardinger
Eight Ball 6 & Nine Ball 8
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| jackmurray |
Posted - 01/28/2008 : 11:58:41 AM
I think this is another really good topic. My first guess would be that this is a PJ's table # 3 scenario..... I don't call timeouts on my opponents when they do this and I too have tried to meander around the table without causing my own player to change his shot in hopes of being able to see if I need to call a timeout on him/her. Oh boy I'll probably hear it for that....
I think the "upper level play" scenario it would be a timeout. Period. If you "approach the table" it's a timeout. In normal weekly play it is a timeout too but I think that under the circumstance that you can't see the table from where you are sitting sometimes and you're lucky enough to just get the score right there should be some leeway. I think this is a judgement/common sense call. If the coach can do this without being noticed and/or swaying his/her player to change his/her shot I say (okay I'm guessing) "No timeout".
I think we all know that the coach does not ever have a right to go stand behind the cueball, check out the possibilities and then decide whether or not to call a timeout... |
| rhaydt |
Posted - 01/26/2008 : 5:50:00 PM
I would recommend taking a good vantage point before the game begins. But I know that in your situation Tom, that there simply was not anywhere anyone could sit to watch the game. Taking interest in your players game cannot be considered a timeout, but if your player sees you trying to get a better vantage point, they may rethink their shot. So avoid moving closer to the table, instead just change your angle to the table. But I also think your opponents were being a little over technical. |
| pfan |
Posted - 01/26/2008 : 4:49:33 PM
I believe the rules manuals state that only the player and coach can approach thea table DURING a timeout, not that approaching the table triggers a time out, esp in the situation that you described where the shooter is unaware of your presence. |
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