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Rick Posted - 01/27/2008 : 9:20:15 PM
I recently played a lower ranked player that was about to hit a ball which could have resulted in a double hit . I pointed this out to the players coach who informed me that as the cue ball and the object ball were touching it couldn't be a double hit . As he was a higher rank than myself I took his word for it . Three questions for you all . Was he right ? I'm sure he was . Secondly was I right to inform the coach ? Subsequently he " coached " his player and I feel that I forced him into that coach . And third, the double hit rule is possibly the hardest rule to enforce in pool , what guidlines can we use to say whether there has or has not been a foul ?
9   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
trhxke Posted - 01/30/2008 : 12:33:36 PM
Bernardo!
You are right again!

Tom Hardinger
Eight Ball 6 & Nine Ball 8
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Big Rig Toy Store
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iampato Posted - 01/30/2008 : 12:12:37 PM
I think it is important to educate shooters, on how to have fun. I understand we are playing to win. But first, at least for me, I want it to be fun for my team and the other team as well. One ball in hand more or less, is not going to cause the loss of a good night for me or my team. determining who breaks after someone scratchs on the break doesn't concern me.

I tell me team "Treat the other team, as if you are at a family function and you are playing the cousin you only at family functions. with respect, patience, and understanding."

Don't take this too seriously people, have fun. that goes out to Iron Fisted Captians as well. if you think I am talking about you, guess what? relax. have fun.

and before you start to get upset with what I wrote here, think about how much fun you had this week. or should I say how little fun. think how you could make it more fun for your team.

Do they really want to be there all night? Is it really that important hold your teammates hostage until the start of the fifth match to see if they are going to play?

Phil and Taz are right. that level of seriousness and competition should be reserved for Regionals and Nationals only. League, Playoffs, and TOC, are more intense yes, but the goal is "fun" for me, and my team. I wish more teams felt and played this way. Match stiix! we played them at the TOC on Saturday, we lost 3-1 and had the best time!



you know, you would think I would get tired of hearing, "you're right Bernardo" but I don't. LOL.
Rick Posted - 01/28/2008 : 10:27:41 AM
Thanks all , I think that answered the questions I posed , now about that coeficient of the tangent cue ball ............
trhxke Posted - 01/28/2008 : 09:02:41 AM
I personally prefer that if the 3rd eye is on one of the two teams playing that he not be on the shooters team.
I have been ask to watch my team mates shot a few times and it really sucks to have to tell your own team mate that they have fouled.....sometimes that foul will result in them losing the game and even the match.

Tom Hardinger
Eight Ball 6 & Nine Ball 8
The BAT-Forum
BigRigTom on My Space
BigRigTom's Blog
Big Rig Toy Store
Your Internet Source for pool cues, cases, table accessories, darts and various collectibles.
Phil Posted - 01/28/2008 : 08:52:35 AM
The two players should agree on one person who will watch the hit. The call made by the third party stands. No declaration is necessary, but obviously it would be in the shooter's best interest to point that out to the third party before the shot.

Phil
trhxke Posted - 01/28/2008 : 08:46:43 AM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by poolguy[/i]
[br]This brought up a few questions in my mind:

1. If I'm playing and I think the opponent may double hit, and I ask for the most experienced player on my team to watch, is his/her decision final as to a double hit? Or, should each team designate someone to watch? I can see an argument occurring if the person calling the foul is on the opposing team as the shooter.

2. Same situation, but the balls are "frozen". Does the shooter have to call the balls as frozen before shooting? In my mind, a ball is not frozen unless and until it is called as frozen (and verified by the opponent). Ergo, if the player is about to shoot, and the balls are close enough to be frozen, and the shooter asks for someone to watch, what is the call if the player did not call the balls as frozen and shot directly through the balls? The action would be basically identical if they were frozen or not (assuming the balls are within a very small tolerance).

John

It only hurts if you miss.



John the best thing to do is if you think you opponent may double hit the cue ball ask the shooter to wait for a 3rd eye, then confirm with the opposing team captain or coach that the chosen 3rd eye person is acceptible to both teams.

I say this because many times the most qualified person to observe the shot objectively will be on one of the two teams that are playing each other.

My team has had this happen many times and usually if both teams trust the individual to objectively make the call it is usually not a big deal that he is also on one of the two teams.

Just try to remember that the person agreed on as the 3rd eye will make the call the way he sees it and that will be the call even if the shooter doesn't like the call...that too has happend to my team many times. Some people will not like the call no matter who makes it but that is another issue all together.

Tom Hardinger
www.BigRigToys.com
Your Internet Source for pool cues, cases, table accessories, darts and various collectibles.
www.myspace.com/bigrigtom
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Kerry Randolph Posted - 01/28/2008 : 08:45:43 AM
First, in order to have a double hit called both teams have to agree on ONE person to watch the shot. You do not have someone from each team but just one person to decide whether it was a double hit. So pick someone with experience. If you do not ask for someone to watch for the double hit before the shot then no foul can be called for the double hit. I think it is the only way to fairly call the shot.

I also make sure the shooter whether they are on my team or my opponent understands what a double hit is and how to avoid it before they shoot the shot in question. Then if they shoot it wrong and foul it is their fault only and not just because they did not understand.

To answer your second question

It is up to the opposing team to check if any ball is frozen, whether it is on the rail or against another ball. If someone shoots a ball and then you jump up and say that was frozen to the rail and you did not hit another rail with a ball, well to bad you did not call the ball frozen before the shot so you can not call a foul. Same with the cue ball if you say nothing you have no ability to call the double hit. However just telling the shooter that the cue ball and his object ball are not frozen is not enough you have to get that third party to watch for the double hit.

I hope this helps

It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt
poolguy Posted - 01/28/2008 : 08:04:33 AM
This brought up a few questions in my mind:

1. If I'm playing and I think the opponent may double hit, and I ask for the most experienced player on my team to watch, is his/her decision final as to a double hit? Or, should each team designate someone to watch? I can see an argument occurring if the person calling the foul is on the opposing team as the shooter.

2. Same situation, but the balls are "frozen". Does the shooter have to call the balls as frozen before shooting? In my mind, a ball is not frozen unless and until it is called as frozen (and verified by the opponent). Ergo, if the player is about to shoot, and the balls are close enough to be frozen, and the shooter asks for someone to watch, what is the call if the player did not call the balls as frozen and shot directly through the balls? The action would be basically identical if they were frozen or not (assuming the balls are within a very small tolerance).

John

It only hurts if you miss.
Phil Posted - 01/27/2008 : 10:14:32 PM
First, let me say I hope this doesn't evolve into a technical discussion of double hits. Been there, done that.

To answer your questions, when you see a potential double hit, you should stop the shooter and get a third party to watch the shot. As a matter of practice, we do not allow our teams to call double-hit fouls from the chair - only a third party can make that call.

Once you have requested a third party, it is probably best to explain what you're asking them to watch for, since you want to be sure the third party knows about double hits. In fact, at national tournaments, if a referee is called to observe a potential double hit, they will explain to the shooter what they are watching for AND what the shooter must do to avoid it. The reasoning is that calling a double-hit foul on someone who has no clue what a double hit even is would be taking advantage of that player. We don't go quite that far, but we do require a third party and if you want to explain everything else to the player that's perfectly fine and a show of good sportsmanship.

And to answer your first question last, if the cue ball and object ball are frozen, they react to the stroke as one ball, so there's no greater chance of a double hit than there would be if the cue ball was the only ball on the table. So yes, he was right.

Phil

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