| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| movistar |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 11:00:04 AM
Since the APA doesn't have any incentive for a player to "get better" because it will raise his skill level, it only incourages "sandbagging" so the 23 rule isn't violated.
In 9 ball the skill lever goes up to 9 and in 8 ball it only goes up to 7.
I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IF THE RULE CAN BE MOVED UP TO 25 IN 9 BALL, THUS giving teams with higher numbers a chance of using more of their players during the season, giving EVERYONE a chance to play, and the 1,2,and 3 can improve their game without having to "sandbag" to keep the numbers down.
Thanks 
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| 10 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| iampato |
Posted - 02/07/2008 : 3:28:54 PM
Thank you for your apology Moviestar. Let me apologize to you. Your comments were the straw that broke the camels back. I understand you did not wish to give your words the weight or intend them to mean what, I gave your words to carry or mean.
I feel that if you are a 7 8 or 9. The responsiblilty is on everyone in the higher tier to maintain the growth of this league. if you wish to improve from a 6 or 5 to reach this higher tier. it will be your responsibility as well.
1's and 2's are very cherished. everone knows that. if you have one 1, and two 2's on your team you can play two 9's. IT IS NOT THE LEAGUES RESPONSIBILITY TO SEE THAT YOU CAN PLAY EVERY WEEK! Changing the rules to allow you feel better doesn't work either.
"Give me the grace to accept the thinks I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the Wisdom to know the difference."
Serenity Prayer.
to all 7's 8's and 9's!! This is a call of your courage!! Find new 1's and 2's. Start new teams, and have fun. and when that happens there will be no need for this type of message ever again.
OH!!
PS. any other rules questions, please as a Basketball referee, Baseball umpire, Football Official for over 20 years. READ THE RULE BOOK! All rule questions answers are in there. there has not been one, I have not been able to find. Start there.
you know, you would think I would get tired of hearing, "you're right Bernardo" but I don't. LOL. |
| Phil |
Posted - 02/06/2008 : 2:42:28 PM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by movistar[/i]
as for playing no players less than a 5 I don't understand the problem... it is a "handicapped league" so that is why the lower players have to win fewer games and make less balls. Many times a 2 or 3 does beat a 7, 8, 9....Lets just make room for everybody to play.
as for the "sandbagging"... in a recent match, one of my team mates played a NEW skill level 4 in 8 ball....the new player broke the first rack and proceeded to RUN the table, drawing PERFECT shape on every ball and breaking out trouble balls.
after breaking the second rack and "almost" running the table, the team captain was over heard whispering to the player that if he keeps shooting "like that", he would go up to a 5 "in no time"....needless to say, the new player shot like crap the rest of the games and LOST.....
those are the players I am talking about NOT the ones who have no desire to "get better".
my hat goes off to ALL the honest players in the league and hope that everybody becomes a 7, 8, or 9....(someday)
THIS A GREAT DEMOCRACY WE LIVE IN.... EVERYBODY HAS THEIR OPINION.
HAVE A GREAT DAY AND HAPPY SHOOTING!
One of the long-term goals of the APA has always been to increase participation in the sport. The ONLY way to do that is to attract people who are not ALREADY participating in the sport. These are the beginners - anyone who is not a beginner is ALREADY participating, by definition. With a cap higher than 23 you don't force teams to have any beginners, thus nobody recruits them into the sport. That's why it's a big deal if you can play five 5's in a match.
As for sandbagging, everyone here knows what to do when you witness a situation like the one you describe. Problem is, everyone here does it except you. This is not the first time you've mentioned witnessing sandbagging, but the next yellow form we get from you detailing the names and exactly what happened will be the first. We deal with cheaters, but only when we know who they are.
Phil
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| bikercowboy |
Posted - 02/06/2008 : 11:24:45 AM
Reference room for everybody to play, not sure how the 23 cap stops that. It does force higher level players to play on different teams. And in answer to question but no team needs a high level player, there is something wrong with a high level player starting a new team? All I see raising the cap doing long term is to cause some teams to not look for new blood. A 23 cap encourages getting new low ranked players into the game. How many new players have you added to your rosters? Without new blood the league slowly dies
Side note- Kudos to Phil for a succinct explanation of level numbers |
| trhxke |
Posted - 02/06/2008 : 11:15:10 AM
Not all 7's, 8's and 9's think alike.
I have been trying very hard to raise my skill level and finally got it up to an 8....at least for a week or two.
The 23 rule is tough on every one and our team has forfeited more than once because of it not to mention we have had a revolving door since the team 1st started and we keep bringing in new players...we need a new one right now since I'm thinking of it.
Like any other rule though, since everyone has to play by the same rule it is just a question of who will find a way to use the rule to their advantage and who will fall victim to the limitations of the rule.
Like Phil explained...if the 23 were 25, teams would drop their 1's & 2's and look for more 3's and 4's.
Heck we could play 5 - 5's
Who would want to face that team every week?
Why don't we just play pool and have a good time.
Let the serious players go up in skill level and let the casual players fall where they may based on the handicap mathematics that the APA trys so diligently to keep a secret and keep looking for those great 1's, 2's and 3's that make it possible for all of us to play this game.
Tom Hardinger
Eight Ball 6 & Nine Ball 8
The BAT-Forum
BigRigTom on My Space
BigRigTom's Blog
Big Rig Toy Store
Your Internet Source for pool cues, cases, table accessories, darts and various collectibles. |
| movistar |
Posted - 02/06/2008 : 10:52:53 AM
When I posted this message I was ONLY trying to see some changes made!!! I thought my intentions were clear.
sorry mr Iampato.. I did NOT point a finger at anyone. and I did NOT call YOU a cheater.
THE ACCUATIONS I MADE WILL ONLY AFFECT THOSE IT APPLIES TO!!!!
JUST WANTED TO SEE THINGS CHANGE
If someone stops improving their skill at a level 4 or 5 that is NOT a problem... just don't play like a 6 or a 7 if they are only a 4 or 5
as for playing no players less than a 5 I don't understand the problem... it is a "handicapped league" so that is why the lower players have to win fewer games and make less balls. Many times a 2 or 3 does beat a 7, 8, 9....Lets just make room for everybody to play.
as for the "sandbagging"... in a recent match, one of my team mates played a NEW skill level 4 in 8 ball....the new player broke the first rack and proceeded to RUN the table, drawing PERFECT shape on every ball and breaking out trouble balls.
after breaking the second rack and "almost" running the table, the team captain was over heard whispering to the player that if he keeps shooting "like that", he would go up to a 5 "in no time"....needless to say, the new player shot like crap the rest of the games and LOST.....
those are the players I am talking about NOT the ones who have no desire to "get better".
my hat goes off to ALL the honest players in the league and hope that everybody becomes a 7, 8, or 9....(someday)
THIS A GREAT DEMOCRACY WE LIVE IN.... EVERYBODY HAS THEIR OPINION.
HAVE A GREAT DAY AND HAPPY SHOOTING! |
| pepelviejo |
Posted - 02/06/2008 : 09:58:40 AM
Thank you for the numbers .... very interesting |
| Phil |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 10:48:56 PM
Had to crunch some numbers before I replied to this one 
"Can we raise the limit to 25?" is something that, when I hear it, almost always tells me the person asking is an 8 or a 9. Seriously, I've never had a 2 ask that question. In this case, it's an 8 on a team with a 5, four 4's, and a 3. No 1's or 2's on that team at all.
It's always followed with "There are 8's and 9's in 9-Ball, so the limit should be higher." Well, no, in 9-Ball we also have 1's, and there are almost as many 1's playing in our league as 8's and 9's combined. In fact, 1's and 2's make up 15.7% of our active 9-Ball players, while 2's make up just 9.6% of our active 8-Ball players. So there are plenty of 1's and 2's to make up for the 8's and 9's.
Here's the biggest problem with raising the cap to 25 in 9-Ball. Skill levels 1 through 4 make up 64% of our active 9-Ball players. With a cap of 25, you could play an entire team match (ten players, five from each team) and NEVER play a player lower than a 5. That's 100% of the matches played by a group that makes up 36% of our players. With a cap of 23, at least 40% of the matches have to be played by players in the 64% group. Maybe we ought to lower the cap to 22 so we force the 64% group to play 60% of the matches.
What about Richard's suggestion of having 8's and 9's count as 7 toward the cap? Would that really be fair to the teams that don't have 8's or 9's? They have to meet 23 while the other team could effectively play to 27? We have just 28 8's and 9's in the league, and the vast majority of teams have nobody higher than a 7.
Then there's the theory that players who go up become obsolete and quit. If that's true, then you would expect the numbers to shift more toward the higher levels for people who are no longer playing. But of all players who have played in the past two years and are not playing now, 72% are skill level 4 or lower, a higher percentage than for the active group!
There was a competitor league in this area for a while that had a cap of 25. What happened? Certain teams dominated. Nobody who was lower than a 4 in APA was asked to play - they weren't competitive, and they weren't needed. That league no longer exists.
I have no problem with the system as it is now. It prevents teams from dominating and ensures that the players who make up the majority of our membership get to play a significant number of matches. Also, the 8's and 9's who really want to play manage to find a way to do so. It's not impossible, it's just hard, and it's supposed to be hard.
Like Bernardo said, there's nothing wrong with not wanting to do the things necessary to improve. Many people play just for the fun and camaraderie. That's what we provide, a structured environment where you can play pool and have fun. We feel no need to provide some "incentive" to improve. However, I think most would agree that the overall level of poolplaying ability in this area has improved dramatically since we started, and I like to think we had something to do with that.
Phil
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| pepelviejo |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 6:26:59 PM
I read these forums and learn a lot from what is said .... I don't understand why anyone would take offense of this post .... I think it would be a great idea to increase the rule to 24 or 25 in 8 ball ... I know some teams that are struggling and are not so competitive (as a team) ... I also know some people that stop playing APA because once they go up in skill level ... they are not needed on the team, so they either start their own team or don't play anymore. It's more difficult to find a team if you are a higher skill level .... that's a fact. |
| rhaydt |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 2:04:39 PM
There are really two issues here. The first is to extend the cap on the skill level to leave room for the improvement of players. The answer is simple, do not start with a team that already adds up to 23. If the limit was 25, you would probably start with the maximum and then ask the limit to be raised to 27.
The other issue is making room for 8's and 9's. It is nice to have a league that encourages low skill level players. But you do not want to squeeze the better players off a team because they are the mentors. There was talk about having 8's and 9's count as only 7 towards the skill level limit, but that was some time ago. |
| iampato |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 11:54:48 AM
Just because someone doesn't wish to improve his/her game you can not call them "sandbaggers". Who the hell are you? Some people play this game to actually have fun. Some people, no let me reduce that. I play for fun. I have players on my team that wish to get better and others that don't. And I take offence to you saying, because this person doesn't wish to improve they are sandbagging.
Good for you, I commend you on wanting to improve your game. That takes dedication, time and effort. I starting as a 4 like everyone else, and going down to a 3 and up to a 6 that I am today, am here to tell you I have reached my goal. I am happy being a 6. I have stopped doing the work necessary to improve my game. But because I have stopped improving my game does not make me a sandbagger.
If I intentionally did things to go down to a 5 that would be sandbagging. Or if I secretly continued to improve to become a 7 and did things to remain a 6 that would be sandbagging. But how dare you say because I am happy being where I am and now wish to have fun, that I am sandbagging. I wish you to apologize, rethink what you wish to really say and try again. But with your words you called me a cheater and I am not.
you know, you would think I would get tired of hearing, "you're right Bernardo" but I don't. LOL. |
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