| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| trhxke |
Posted - 07/27/2005 : 4:57:24 PM
The only reference I found in the Captain's Rule Book is on pg:50 and reads as follows:
"Even after having addressed the cue ball a
player may, if not satisfied with the placement, make further adjustments with his hand, cue stick or any other reasonable piece of
equipment. A foul may be called only if the player fouls the cue
ball while actually stroking the cue ball, meaning a double hit of
the cue ball (sometimes called double clutching)."
You can actually double hit the cue ball in a variety of way but the most common occurance is when you hit directly into and the cue ball with follow thru and the cue ball very close to the object ball. This is the one that usually results in "heated exchanges". Most captains and even none captains who have been around for a while will quickly recognize the potential for a double hit and request the shot be observed by a 3rd party...sometimes resulting in the proverbial "heated exchange" again.
For those who do not understand what the "double-hit" is and/or how it happens take a look at these high speed video:
Double Hit Near Miss This one is easy to mis read! Even for the 3rd Eye!
[url]http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-9.htm[/url]
Slight Double HitThis also is easy for the 3rd eye to miss read!
[url]http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-10.htm[/url]
NON Double Hit with Follow This one sticks out like a sore thumb! BUT can be mis-interpreted by the 3rd eye!
[url]http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-11.htm[/url]
Double Hit This is very common and easy to spot!
[url]http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-12.htm[/url]
Hope this helps and maybe when you oponent ask for a 3rd party to observe the hit is would be a good idea to choose a different shot or choose to hit this shot a different way. That would save a lot of those "heated exchanges".
Tom Hardinger
www.BigRigToys.com
Your Internet Source for pool cues, darts and colletibles. |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Jill |
Posted - 08/09/2005 : 5:10:39 PM
quote:
I think the key phrase in Jill's reply is "for no good reason".
Yup!  |
| mouyo |
Posted - 08/05/2005 : 12:22:02 PM
I've been in a few situation where the cue ball and the object ball are about 1/2 cm apart and while making the shot, the cue ball felt heavier, but I didn't feel 2 hits with the cue. So is it normal and also is that considered 2 hits?
john |
| Phil |
Posted - 08/01/2005 : 1:57:12 PM
quote:
Originally posted by ApaMVP
I would have to disagree. I truly feel the ultimate responsibility really falls on the honesty of a player while shooting. If any shooter is known to know the rules, follow them, and respect the game and opponent enough to call their own bad hits when they occur, then third party's might not be involved as often. I've really found that it is rare, but necessary that referees are called more often on some teams/players because they have proven to be unreliable when calling their own shots, whether it be double hits, not hitting their own ball, hitting a rail, elevated cue, etc.
P.S. Honestly, there are a very few people it wouldn't hurt to have a referee watch EVERY shot, just because of the things they unreasonably do, followed by even being more unreasonable by calling their shots legal.
I think the key phrase in Jill's reply is "for no good reason". It's one thing to protect yourself from a team that repeatedly calls bad hits good, just because they know the call will go to the shooter. But it's quite another to call a tournament official over to watch a shot where the cue ball has to travel two feet, pass the 8-Ball, then travel two MORE feet to get to the object ball. I had to watch that one last month at Regionals...
Phil
|
| ApaMVP |
Posted - 08/01/2005 : 1:31:03 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Jill
As a side note, I would also consider repeatedly asking to have hits watched by a third party for no good reason to be a sportsmanship violation.
Jill Frankland
League Operator
San Diego APA
I would have to disagree. I truly feel the ultimate responsibility really falls on the honesty of a player while shooting. If any shooter is known to know the rules, follow them, and respect the game and opponent enough to call their own bad hits when they occur, then third party's might not be involved as often. I've really found that it is rare, but necessary that referees are called more often on some teams/players because they have proven to be unreliable when calling their own shots, whether it be double hits, not hitting their own ball, hitting a rail, elevated cue, etc.
P.S. Honestly, there are a very few people it wouldn't hurt to have a referee watch EVERY shot, just because of the things they unreasonably do, followed by even being more unreasonable by calling their shots legal. |
| Torsten |
Posted - 08/01/2005 : 12:59:44 PM
Simon
Don't worry about it. I could have avoided the whole thing by simply having my rulebook on me. Of course, I didn't. Therefore I am as much to blame as anyone. No hard feelings. Catch up to ya soon.
Torsten |
| Jill |
Posted - 07/30/2005 : 10:37:32 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Torsten
The part in the rulebook about teams 'repeatedly calling bad hits' doesn't make much sense to me either.
This rule is there to prevent teams/players from constantly calling bad hits on their opponents for no reason other than to disrupt the game and cause the opponent to lose his/her concentration, momentum, rhythm etc. This is considered sharking and is absolutely poor sportsmanship. As a side note, I would also consider repeatedly asking to have hits watched by a third party for no good reason to be a sportsmanship violation.
Jill Frankland
League Operator
San Diego APA |
| BigSi |
Posted - 07/30/2005 : 06:38:34 AM
Thorsten, I must apologize for my incorrect call in the said matter, I hope the out come was not a match deciding factor. Very Sorry...Simon |
| Taz |
Posted - 07/29/2005 : 3:38:37 PM
Torsten,
No offense taken. You are absolutely right. We stop answering the phone at midnight, and I appreciate your mentioning that is the reason you couldn't reach us.
As to your question/concern, one would think that asking an experienced player is best; however, you should get in the habit of consulting your Division Rep. All of our Division Reps are asked to carry a team manual and refer to it. The best source of information (when we are not available) is the actual Team Manual. On page 50.g it states "causing even the slightest movement or altering the course of the cue ball, even accidentally, is a foul."
Richard is right. Wrong call was made. |
| rhaydt |
Posted - 07/29/2005 : 11:47:07 AM
You got a bad ruling. Touching the cue ball while in play in any way shape or form is a foul. And if the cue ball contacts an object ball that was accidently moved during the shot, it is a foul. |
| Torsten |
Posted - 07/29/2005 : 11:39:27 AM
This falls along a similar line to our topic. In our 9-ball match this week, a player (i'm not mentioning names or which team was shooting  ) used a bridge for a shot. After contact, the white ball came off a rail and struck the bridge, not the cue. The opposing team's captain and I, after failed attempts to reach the league office, consulted a very reliable and trustworthy source about the ruling in this situation. It was brought to our attention that this is NOT a foul, and the shooting player will continue his turn, provided a ball was made, from wherever the white ball ended up. If the shot was missed, the other player will shoot from wherever the whiteball ended up. THIS IS NOT A BALL IN HAND. While I believe the ruling given to us was correct, I'm afraid this may be a common enough occurence to warrant making everyone aware of the rule so it is applied properly should the situation occur. Oh, and if I am mistaken about the rule, PLEASE EDUCATE ME SO I DON'T MAKE ANY FURTHER ERRORS SHOULE THIS HAPPEN AGAIN.
As an aside to Taz and Phil. I was not insinuating anything by saying 'failed attempts at reaching you.' it was the final match of the night and after midnight. We are fully aware that you guys need sleep too. I hope the other captain and I did the correct thing in contacting an experienced player for help. I apologize for any mistakes and in the case mistakes were made, please respond with the proper course of action so no further ones occur. Thanks and sorry for the long-winded post. |
| Torsten |
Posted - 07/29/2005 : 11:28:51 AM
Matt
The opposing captain may ask about or question the integrity of the hit. However, a third eye removes all debate. The third eye's call stands unequivocally. Without a third party, you have to rely on the honesty of the shooter and his captain. I have found that most people will be truthful. In the event a third eye is not available (i.e. you and your opponents are the only people playing in that location on that night) the captains should briefly meet before the shot to discuss the potential foul. Still, in this instance, the call lies with the shooter.
The part in the rulebook about teams 'repeatedly calling bad hits' doesn't make much sense to me either. To my knowledge, a player can call bad hit all he wants but it makes no difference. Not to beat a dead horse, but if at all possible the third eye should ALWAYS be used whenever a potentially controversial shot is about to be taken. |
| Matt |
Posted - 07/28/2005 : 4:13:54 PM
Torsten, that's just what I had wanted to confirm. If the two balls travel at the same speed, with no cue ball hesitation, then that's a bad hit, right? My new question: if that happens on a league night, can the opposing captain call a foul or do you have to have called in a third party to watch the shot ahead of time? Taz mentioned this in the general forum:
quote:
We can discuss it all you want, but the rule is quite clear. As Phil already stated in this thread, a double-hit IS a foul and one that should only be called by a third party. So, if the players do not ask for a third party to watch the hit, you cannot call a double-hit foul, regardless of how much the coach, captain or "7/9" on the team wants to scream about it.
This makes perfect sense to me, but the best I can find in the league manual on the topic is this (page 6 of the 8-ball rules):
"If you think your opponent is attempting a shot that could result in a bad hit, get someone to watch the shot before he starts shooting. Teams involved in repeatedly calling bad hits without outside party verification may be subject to penalty points for disruptive unsportsmanlike behavior."
The part about "repeatedly calling bad hits without outside party verification" makes it unclear to me....
Responding to Jason's post: I recognize the sound of a bad hit, but where we play with all the people and the racket and the jukebox I don't think I'd stand a chance of relying on just the sound of it. Just my .02 cents.
Matt |
| Torsten |
Posted - 07/28/2005 : 3:59:37 PM
One other thing in general. Just because the cue ball follows the object ball does not necessarily mean there was a double hit. It may have just been topspin. The way to differentiate between the two is on a legal hit, the white ball will hesitate for a moment after contact with the object ball before continuing forward. When a double hit occurs, the cue striking the white ball a second time will eliminate the hesitation of the white ball, sending both balls in the direction struck at similar speeds. |
| Torsten |
Posted - 07/28/2005 : 3:54:41 PM
Kerry. That is not true. If the balls are touching, or "frozen", it simply means that you may strike straight into the cueball without having to worry about a double hit occuring in that instant. However, if the white ball bounces rapidly around the table and for whatever reason it strikes your cue again, it's technically still a double hit because your cue struck the white a second time in the same shot. It's an unlikely scenario but it is possible. |
| Kerry Randolph |
Posted - 07/28/2005 : 3:36:37 PM
Jason
I am sorry we are not all experts on spotting the double hits or being able to hear them. It has been my experience that in most of these situations players hit the balls so hard they make a lot of racket and jump up off the table and I would find it hard to tell on sound alone. My last statement and question is, I have heard and there have been references to it here that if the balls are frozen there can be no double hit. Is this true, or just peoples opinion? |
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