| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Rick |
Posted - 05/31/2008 : 12:13:36 PM
Probably the most infuriating rule in the league is the Double Hit rule . An opponent was about to take a shot which would have been a double hit , I asked their coach to watch the hit and explained that the white ball was less than a chalk width from the object ball and that if the player hit straight at the object ball and the white then traveled in the same direction as the object ball it would be a double hit , I think I'm right in saying that , please correct me if I'm wrong . The player took the shot and the white followed the object ball as I had said it would , their coach , a 5 that has been a 6 , said it looked fine ! To put this to rest can you , Phil / Taz , put in a guideline to what is a double hit and more importantly how to recognise it , in the weekly packets for every team just once . Something that we have in writing to avoid problems , I don't think everyone goes online and the rule book as far as I can tell doesn't give a firm guideline .
Thanks |
| 14 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Rick |
Posted - 09/25/2008 : 10:28:35 AM
But mine was read and replied to more , surely there's a patch in it for me somewhere ! |
| Phil |
Posted - 09/25/2008 : 12:53:43 AM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Rick[/i]
[br]I put this topic up in May and 4 months later it's still getting replies , is this a record ? I'd like to think I've achieved something this session as my pool playing sucks !
Not even close. See the "New to this all" thread in the "Players looking for teams" forum...
Phil
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| Rick |
Posted - 09/25/2008 : 12:27:00 AM
I put this topic up in May and 4 months later it's still getting replies , is this a record ? I'd like to think I've achieved something this session as my pool playing sucks ! |
| marcel3405 |
Posted - 09/24/2008 : 2:53:18 PM
Double Hit explanation:
First, we know what a Stun shot is. The cue ball basically has no roll, nor draw at the moment of impact on object ball. The cue ball in fact skids /slides on the felt. The energy is fully transfered from cue ball to object ball with the cue ball coming to an immediate and full stop.
When the cue ball is hit high, the initial reaction of the cue ball is to slide, after which the friction of the felt will be the cause of the roll of the cue ball. The harder the cue ball is hit, the later the roll will start.
A cue ball that is rolling before impact on object ball has a tendency to follow the object ball. Since the cue ball loses energy on impact with the object ball, it will roll follow at a much lesser speed than the speed of the object ball after impact.
Double hit; When the cue ball is close to the object ball, the cue ball has no time to initiate it's roll and effectively creates a stun shot. The cue ball comes to a dead stop.
When the cue ball is close to the object ball and follows the object ball (which in a legal shot is not possible), that is because the cue ball came in fact to a dead stop (stun) and the forward movement of the cue stick hits the cue ball again (second hit = double hit) and propels the cue ball forward at high speeds.
The second hit on the cue ball is the foul.
The cue ball can follow at all from short distance.
The cue ball can never follow faster than object ball.
Hope this helps
Marcel |
| marcel3405 |
Posted - 09/24/2008 : 2:40:57 PM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Duck Hunter[/i]
[br]Well it seemed like a logical thing to have the other team captain witness the hit also instead of just our side seeing the foul.
Most players and captain are very honest when it comes to agreeing that a foul has been committed. The problem stems from the fact that there are MANY people in this league (some of them 6's that I know) that just don't understand the double hit when pushing thru the cue ball when it is NOT frozen to the object ball.
It would also seem logical since you have the team captains together during the pre-season team captain's meeting to spend a few minutes explaining this. Looking back in the archives, this has been an issue since 2005.
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| BigRigTom |
Posted - 08/15/2008 : 1:22:53 PM
Duck Hunter I feel your pain again!@#$%%^ Last night one of our new 9 ball players committed this very foul and as the score keeper I had to try to explain it to her and explain why she did not get to count the point for the ball that dropped following the foul.
Please feel free to refer anyone and everyone to this link where they can see a high speed video of the two balls hitting then the cue ball bouncing back into the cue tip resulting in the 2nd hit!
http://hardingersystems.com/BAT-forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=178
BigRigTom
http://hardingersystems.com/BAT-Forum to discuss Billiards and Trucking or anything that interest you! |
| Duck Hunter |
Posted - 08/08/2008 : 4:57:47 PM
Well it seemed like a logical thing to have the other team captain witness the hit also instead of just our side seeing the foul.
Most players and captain are very honest when it comes to agreeing that a foul has been committed. The problem stems from the fact that there are MANY people in this league (some of them 6's that I know) that just don't understand the double hit when pushing thru the cue ball when it is NOT frozen to the object ball.
It would also seem logical since you have the team captains together during the pre-season team captain's meeting to spend a few minutes explaining this. Looking back in the archives, this has been an issue since 2005. |
| BigRigTom |
Posted - 07/31/2008 : 4:24:16 PM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Taz[/i]
[br]Why did you ask the opposing team captain to watch the hit and then YOU called the foul? If the opposing team captain was the agreed upon third party (to watch the hit) you should not have made a call either way.
The correct procedure is to find a mutually agreed upon third party to watch the hit. Once the third party is agreed upon, their calls stands regardless of who else may agree or disagree with their ruling.
Great response Taz!
The shooter and his captain may not be the best choice to "watch" the shot....but ...many of them are fine too....
Once it is agreed who watches the hit then his call should be respected ...even if it is thought to be wrong.
A friend of my back in Chicago was a big shot at the Burlington Northern Rail Road and he had a saying...it went.
"I may be wrong, but I know I'm right!"
You could not argue with him because he was like God at that BNRR facility ...sort of like being 3rd eye.
BigRigTom
http://hardingersystems.com/BAT-Forum to discuss Billiards and Trucking or anything that interest you! |
| Taz |
Posted - 07/31/2008 : 3:39:02 PM
Why did you ask the opposing team captain to watch the hit and then YOU called the foul? If the opposing team captain was the agreed upon third party (to watch the hit) you should not have made a call either way.
The correct procedure is to find a mutually agreed upon third party to watch the hit. Once the third party is agreed upon, their calls stands regardless of who else may agree or disagree with their ruling.
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| Duck Hunter |
Posted - 07/31/2008 : 1:47:27 PM
It would be very nice if the double hit can be explained. Maybe at the Captain's Meeting at the beginning of the season.
I was playing a SL5 that was about to commit the double hit. I asked the opposing team captain to watch the hit. Both balls were inline near the side rail. He shoots, the cue ball actually overtakes the object ball and hits the foot rail BEFORE the object ball drops into the corner pocket. I call a foul, everybody on the other team says it was good. His explanation: "I used a lot of top english." After the match, which I lost it being hill/hill when this happened. I asked him to show me the shot again with 6" between the cue ball and object ball. He got very upset when he couldn't recreate the shot. Moral victory. |
| BigRigTom |
Posted - 06/23/2008 : 5:33:53 PM
I know the double hit is a frustrating situation in a pool game and it is even more frustrating when the player who does it is not convinced that it actually is a double hit.
Check out this thread for a High Speed Video of the double hit taking place.
http://hardingersystems.com/BAT-forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=178
You may want to watch it several times because even at this High Speed it is not real easy to see the second hit but it is there just the same....note how the cue ball then follows the object ball too.
BigRigTom
http://hardingersystems.com/BAT-Forum to discuss Billiards and Trucking or anything that interest you! |
| poolguy |
Posted - 05/31/2008 : 2:02:52 PM
Rick,
You'll find this is a problem in HLTs (Vegas) as well.
I'm a '6' and played a '3' in Vegas at the Southwest Challenge and when the '3' was about to double hit by shooting through the cue ball (object ball about a chalk distance in front) she was coached to jack up. I called for a "referee". The hit was, indeed, a double hit but the "referee" called it good. He was not trained to call a double hit but his call stood. It didn't affect the match, but don't think that simply because you get someone official they'll know how to call it.
John
It only hurts if you miss. |
| Rick |
Posted - 05/31/2008 : 1:57:12 PM
Thanks John
You answered my question in that I was right about it being a double hit , and yes training , or the very least a written description is what I'd like to see each team to have .Obviously it is part of the rules which some teams would like to ignore , until , of course they end up in Vegas , so I think that it is something that should be addressed in regular play . |
| poolguy |
Posted - 05/31/2008 : 1:24:07 PM
A double hit definitely is misunderstood by 99% of the playing public. At least the APA playing public. I don't mean that in a derogatory sense, but serious players generally know it and casual players (more the norm in the APA) do not.
If you look at the international rules, this is covered and basically what it says is that if the balls are within a chalk distance and the referee *cannot determine if the hit was good*, that if the cue ball travels more than half way through where the object ball started out it is a foul. If you'd like me to look it up and quote it I'll do so.
It is possible to take this shot and have the cue ball go forward, but it is not easy, The followthrough of the cue cannot be more than the distance the balls are apart. If the followthrough is more than that distance, there will be a double hit (assuming a normal stroke and not a masse stroke). There are several things I look for, and one is the two balls moving forward at the same time. It is *impossible* to hit the cue ball into an object ball and have the two balls go forward down the table at basically the same time and have it not be a foul. The reason they do is the double hit.
I do not think anything in writing would solve this problem. The only solution is to have knowledgeable players watch the shot. I would suggest one method to ensure this would be to have each captain trained in this shot ... which would be easy to do.
John
It only hurts if you miss. |
