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Showtime
USA
73 Posts |
 Posted - 04/14/2010 : 09:23:44 AM
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I was reading the HAC topic, but didn't feel it was the right place for this topic (all though similar).
I curious to know why handicapping is not done nationally. In some regions 5's would 6's, and in other regions 4's would be 3's. I don't think the system is so far off that anyone would be considered or move a plyer 2 skill levels either way.
The ultimate goal of playing in league is to go to Vegas and win Nationals. However, it is very discouraging when a team (or player in singles) at Nationals is Skill level better than another. And, I'm not talking about one game where a person is on or off but when one person over and over again is skill levels above the competition.
I know that we are not allowed to know how the equallizer works (or at least what components make up the equallizer), but I believe skill levels are decided by standard deviations (I appologize if I just lost some people). When these standard deviations are done regionally, it can cause distortion when these different regions meet.
With the age of the internet, why can't we be handicapped nationally? Or, why wouldn't we want it to be done nationally?
If I disagree with you, it is because I am right. |
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D-RACK
USA
321 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2010 : 09:38:17 AM
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| WOW Good post! I will wait before i sound off to hear from Phil..... |
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rhaydt
USA
109 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2010 : 12:18:06 PM
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“Standard deviations” is the mathematical term for the “bell curve” which everyone knows how grades were decided in school. For those you have not done it yet, register at the national website “poolplayers.com” and you will be able to see your stats. They are quite current, so the national office has the ability to create a “bell curve” for the entire league. Whether they do it or not, and if they feed this information back to the local league, and what they do with it, is the question. I do not expect someone in another league directly affecting our skill levels. But when you go to nationals I am sure that changes to skill levels do occur before play begins.
Richard
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BigRigTom
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2010 : 1:15:20 PM
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So far this is the best and most postitive suggestion I have heard since I joined the APA back in 2000.
I will be watching and waiting for the response with bated breath!
I think this would be an amazing improvement in the over all system.
BigRigTom
http://hardingersystems.com/BAT-Forum to discuss Billiards and Trucking or anything that interest you! |
Edited by - BigRigTom on 04/14/2010 2:05:13 PM |
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MGB
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2010 : 1:52:49 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by rhaydt[/i]
[br]“Standard deviations” is the mathematical term for the “bell curve” which everyone knows how grades were decided in school. For those you have not done it yet, register at the national website “poolplayers.com” and you will be able to see your stats. They are quite current, so the national office has the ability to create a “bell curve” for the entire league. Whether they do it or not, and if they feed this information back to the local league, and what they do with it, is the question. I do not expect someone in another league directly affecting our skill levels. But when you go to nationals I am sure that changes to skill levels do occur before play begins.
Richard
Thanks Richard, I went to the national site as you reccomended, but it took me awhile to figure out how to register... the following link may help others to navigate there more easily, go to:
https://members.poolplayers.com/default.aspx
then click on Claim Your Account |
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TCIndepMo
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2010 : 01:54:43 AM
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First, some full disclosure. I have been the APA league operator in Jackson County, Missouri (greater Kansas City)since 1980. Phil and Taz allow me the courtesy of access to these message boards and I always find some really good opinions and input here.
As for Showtime's question "why handicapping is not done nationally" - it is AND it isn't. IMO.
It depends on the context of your question. It is not a secret that all 267 of us LOs use the same skill level software and send in the same weekly reports to St Louis. The mathematical boundaries between skill levels are the same everywhere. If you make it to Vegas that total stranger you play has been rated by the same software as you. Different LO judgement, but same software.
However, reading between the lines of Showtimes post, I preceive the question is more about why does a SL 4 in Calif play like a SL 5 in Kansas City, etc. In that context I can say the handicapping is NOT done nationally. Rather my local eyes and ears (and judgement) are factors. I know stuff about my players that the APA doesn't. Phil knows stuff about you guys that the APA doesn't. How he processes that "gray area" info will be different than how I do it. Based on my local experience I might give much emphasis to angry opponent write ups while Phil might think the player's track record is more important. As long as he is consistent in his area and I am consistent in my area the APA is happy with both of us(short version - many more factors involved).
The APA allows each LO much latitude in enforcement of scorekeeping requirements (marking of defense shots is the biggest in my area), policing of sandbaggers, emphasis put on written comments, and many other factors that some might describe as "the gray area". As long as we are consistent within our own area. Yes, the judgement and experience level of the LOs varies widely which is why we all get extensive training, both on line and face to face several times a year from our bosses in St Louis. LOs that consistently send players to Vegas that are rated too low are soon called "ex league operators". The franchise agreement gives the APA authority to take away our franchise if the LO keeps screwing up. And they do.
My goal has always been to have my SL 3s (as a group) play a little bit better than my SL 2s. I want my SL 4's (as a group) to play better than my group of SL 3s, the SL 5's should be better than the sl 4's, etc all the way up to my SL 7's being better than the SL 6s.
So many factors go into making this happen. Thank goodness Showtime recognized the randomness of "...where a person is on or off". Many players see a one time snapshot of their opponent playing for 10-30 minutes (approx)and want to judge their skill level right there with no consideration given to any other factors. That's not how it works.
My point is - your APA skill level is based on an ACCUMULATION of those local snap shots - not just the most recent. We LOs are to monitor suspicious patterns and anything we feel should be included in determining your APA skill level.
If I see a SL 3 kicking butt all night long on the way to winning a Saturday night bar tournament vs a room of SL 5's and above - of course I am going to take that into consideration when next reviewing his APA play. If I didn't I would be cheating my honest players. If my BOG or HAC gives me feedback on a new player I most definitely can use those sources to get the skill level as accurate as possible. We review every player, every time their team turns in a scoresheet.
As for expecting Phil and I to do EVERYTHING exactly the same way - he is not in my locations on a Saturday night and I am not in his. We have to have the freedom to process our own findings in our own way. As long as we are consistent within our area - that is the goal.
And THAT is what gives us a Missouri SL 6 that plays like a Calif SL 5, when they face off in Vegas. At least that is the short version.
There are many other factors that apply. But it is late in Missouri. I am sure Phil is lurking out there somewhere.
As for the "bated breath" - it's OK to exhale now.
TomCampbell
APA Independence Missouri |
Edited by - TCIndepMo on 04/15/2010 1:58:17 PM |
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Showtime
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2010 : 11:06:46 PM
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Tom,
Thanks for the response! I can see how there is some league operator adjustment, but aren't they mainly basing these adjustments/rankings on what they see in there league?
I also understand that all LO's use the same handicapping software. So, to clarify, is all scoring sent to St. Louis, where based on all the players in the nation the program determines who is what rating? Or, when it reaches the LO's does the program determine who is it what rating in that region and then those ratings with the W/L's get sent to St. Louis?
Based on what you stated, "My goal has always been to have my SL 3s (as a group) play a little bit better than my SL 2s. I want my SL 4's (as a group) to play better than my group of SL 3s, the SL 5's should be better than the sl 4's, etc all the way up to my SL 7's being better than the SL 6s." I suspect this is why there is a difference between leagues and SL's. This also leads me to believe that when stats reach the LO's the program determine who it what rating in that region and then those ratings with the W/L's get sent to St. Louis.
If all scoring was sent St. Louis and then SL's are calculated, it would help to fairly handicap on a national level, making it less necessary for LO's to manually divert from the scoring. Granted there would need to be times where there should be some adjusting (i.e. marking of defense shots, policing of sandbaggers, and many other factors that some might describe as "the gray area" ). Maybe, national standards could be set up for the gray areas too.
What I am getting at is that there would be less deviation in SL's if SL's were set up nationally and maybe even the gray areas. What I am looking for is leveling the playing feild across the country.
If handicapping is done without deviation across the country, any SL should have a 50/50 chance of winning within a division, league or even nationally.
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Edited by - Showtime on 04/15/2010 11:12:30 PM |
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2010 : 12:58:39 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Showtime[/i]
If all scoring was sent St. Louis and then SL's are calculated, it would help to fairly handicap on a national level, making it less necessary for LO's to manually divert from the scoring.
No, it wouldn't. Whatever "bell curve" exists in the computerized formula is established from national data, not local data. If you start an APA franchise in a new area, you get software with the curve built in. You don't have to establish your own. The game is the same everywhere, so the curve will apply everywhere.
quote:
Granted there would need to be times where there should be some adjusting (i.e. marking of defense shots, policing of sandbaggers, and many other factors that some might describe as "the gray area" ). Maybe, national standards could be set up for the gray areas too.
What I am getting at is that there would be less deviation in SL's if SL's were set up nationally and maybe even the gray areas. What I am looking for is leveling the playing feild across the country.
If you can put it in the software, then it doesn't matter if there's one physical copy of the software or 270. The things Tom refers to as "gray areas" are what I like to call "local knowledge". For example, you can't make adjustments for lack of defensive marks on the scoresheets unless you know the defensive shots are being played and not marked. You have to know the tendencies of your local players and teams to make the proper adjustments.
quote:
If handicapping is done without deviation across the country, any SL should have a 50/50 chance of winning within a division, league or even nationally.
You mean against someone with the same SL, right? This is already the case in all but the highest SL group (since the better player can't go up). But you gotta be careful here. It's not 50/50 regardless of how you play, it's 50/50 if both players play up to their abilities. The SL number reflects ability, not average performance, so the player who is more consistent and more likely to play up to his/her ability has a statistical edge going in.
Whenever you see a player or team from another area that over and over again is skill levels above the competition (and whether you ever have is a topic for a different discussion, though I'd be willing to bet my house that you've never seen an area where EVERYONE is skill levels better than EVERYONE from another area), it comes down to one of two things. Either that individual/team is cheating, or the LO in that area is not properly applying his/her local knowledge. Either way, you can't fix the problem or even improve it a little bit by doing the handicapping in the national office.
Phil
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rhaydt
USA
109 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2010 : 3:03:24 PM
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The last time I played in the 8-ball team Nationals in Las Vegas I found that the skill levels to be quite fair. I believe we played 8 matches so I got to see a lot of players. The number one reason why players lost their matches was because they played below their normal skill level. I do not remember even one opponent that I would have considered under rated. There are a lot of factors that affect your game and if you prepare for them you will do good. Get as much sleep as possible and save the partying for later (you will have plenty of time to party). Matches start anywhere from 8am to 11pm. An 11pm to 3am match can really affect your skill level.
Overall I believe that the system works quite well.
Now when it comes to the National Singles event, this is a different story. I have watched players in our own local regional event that have played way above their assigned skill level. I watched several of the 3's in 9-ball play in our March regional. I could make a team with the top four 9-ball players ranked as a '3' and we would be almost unbeatable.
BTW-Do the top four 3's want to start a team, and we have room for a couple of 4's.
Richard
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bikercowboy
105 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2010 : 3:06:46 PM
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At least one of those 3s is now a 4
Isn't the object to make the object ball? But yes you are right the leave would be awesome if it was your shot. |
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jackmurray
USA
51 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2010 : 7:03:02 PM
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| I just thought I'd mention (Richard) that I'm pretty sure everyone gets as much sleep as possible and saves the partying for later in the Vegas tourneys.... |
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BigRigTom
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2010 : 8:25:48 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by jackmurray[/i]
[br]I just thought I'd mention (Richard) that I'm pretty sure everyone gets as much sleep as possible and saves the partying for later in the Vegas tourneys....
Yep! That was my plan, but the people at the crap table kept yelling and the noise kept me awake almost all night!
BigRigTom
http://hardingersystems.com/BAT-Forum to discuss Billiards and Trucking or anything that interest you! |
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rhaydt
USA
109 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2010 : 10:39:39 PM
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Jack, you are an exception. My skill level drops rathers quickly after every beer. Your skill level not only stabilizes but goes up. I prefer playing you when you are sober.
Tom, I have that same problem with the crap table. What a noisy crowd. We almost got there together the other year. Hope to one day make another run at it with you. It was fun. Too bad I was exiled that night.
Richard |
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movistar
193 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2010 : 08:49:27 AM
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| speaking of going to Vegas for POOL... just a thought.. wouldn't it be NICE if the APA had a NATIONAL tournament in Vegas where EVERY team could GO? pay an entrance fee and go with out having TO WIN SOMETHING TO QUALIFY !!!! |
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2010 : 09:46:13 AM
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Yeah, that would be nice. It would probably take a month or longer to run it, though. Last year there were over 1200 teams in the National Team Championships, and this year they've had to add a day to the event (up to 10 days now). Imagine how many more teams an open event would bring.
Could they find a bigger place and add tables? The only place I can think of that's bigger is the Las Vegas Convention Center, and besides costing a fortune, they have no guest rooms.
For the national singles and team events, APA flies their entire national office staff to Las Vegas and puts them up for a week to ten days, leaving only a skeleton crew behind. They bring their accountants, office assistants, and even their lawyer to work the events. Some family members of the national office staff are added onto the payroll for that week. Heck, last year they even hired our 17-year-old son for a week! An open event would easily double the expense, not to mention the additional staff that would have to be hired and trained to handle the increased size.
In addition to paid staff, there are quite a few volunteers involved in the National Team Championships. Both Taz and I volunteer our time to help out. There are about 30 league operators who do this, all volunteers. APA covers our room and gives us buffet tickets. We do it to make the event the best it can be. Very few of us would be able to do it for an event lasting longer than the current event, though. I would imagine that the volunteer referees would have a hard time being in Vegas that long, too.
APA is currently considering a number of open events, at a regional level, maybe three or four across the country at different times of the year. These events would be smaller than nationals and would last maybe four or five days. This would reduce their staffing requirements and the duration for which the staff and volunteers would have to be away from home. It's a compromise, and they are just beginning to think about it, but they are considering it.
Phil
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Handicapping
