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Victor
USA
34 Posts |
 Posted - 05/02/2006 : 4:05:02 PM
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The old saying about there being only two basic ways to win at pool is being amended to include a third.
Number 1. Win at the table
(Traditionally, this is the best way to do things.)
Number 2. Break your opponent's hands
(Traditionally, this is the worst way to do things.)
Number 3. Beat them over the head with the rule book
(latest tradition: less honorable than first two)
Scenario: APA Playoff Best of 5 Matches
First Place Team (FPT) facing Wild Card Team (WCT) in APA playoff.
FPT plays a Skill Level 5 against WCT S/L five in a four/four race. FPT wins 4-1.
FPT plays S/L 6, WCT plays a three. FPT wins handily.
FPT selects a S/L 7 for third and hopefully, last game. Ironically, not only was it to be the last game, it was a total forfeit of the playoff by the FPT in a stunning rule that the WCT team was aware of and not the FPT.
It seems that teams "IN THE PLAYOFFS" must have five available players scheduled to play that does not exceed the 23 Rule, even if they do not play. From the instant that the S/L 7 broke her rack, the WCT rushed to table to tell the FPT that the playoff was forfeited. It seems after the play of the S/L 7, plus the S/L 6 and S/L 5 the FPT had only two S/L 3s to (tentatively) play matches 4 and 5 and that would exceed the 23 Rule. It seems the WCT team was very aware of the rule and "strategized" by not bringing it to the attention of the FPT. Was it "legal"? probably! Was it sportsmanship? an unqualified NO!!
Mind you, these same teams had met two weeks prior. During the course of a match that an FPT player was on the verge of winning, the WCT team captain (who was not playing)went to the table and picked up three balls and scattered some others. After FPT player told him it was a foul, a discussion ensued and it was decided that there would be a re-rack and a new game started. As the FPT player involved, I wasn't too happy about it as the match was close and I had but to make two simple shots to end it. The WCT captain proclaimed that he thought the match was over which is why he picked up and scattered the balls. I didn't like it but I accepted his apology and explanation. After last night's action, I'm no so sure that it wasn't a display of gamesmanship. Fortunately, I won the match which had been hill/hill.
By the reaction of the WCT players when our S/L 7 broke, it was very obvious that they were aware of and using the 23 playoff rule to their advantage. I suppose that the FPT should have been aware of the rule, but I feel in the spirit of good sportmanship, the WCT could have and should have said something. You're supposed to win and lose at the tables, not slumped over reading the rule book. After a long hard season, it should be about what you do with the cue that matters!
After ten years in the league, this is the first time I've considered quitting. It's situations like this that can make competing ugly. I would rather not play than to win in that fashion.
Victor Ortiz
PS: To the WC team: Congratulations! Don't expect courtesies from us in the future. |
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Doug Gill
USA
92 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2006 : 4:49:31 PM
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First things first. First, Pages 33 and 34 of the "APA Team Manual" define the 23 Rule. According to what I read, a team is NEVER to be allowed to break the 23 Rule. Second, did your captain not know about the 23 Rule and if so chose to ignore it? Lastly, how did your team ever field a team without a 23 Rule violation based on the skill levels stated. If this was due to natural skill increases, were the League Operators asked how your team could play and still comply with the rule.
Now, good sportmanship comes in many shapes and sizes, ALL of which are to be commended. Unfortunately so does bad sportmanship and equally to be condemned. My feelings are that regardless of how one may be affected, and I have been on the "bad" side of a ruling, the ONLY way to be sure and not get caught in the "we let you slide now its our turn" trap is to adhere to the rules at all times. Yes, one does get called some unpleasant things and receive the cold shoulder....BUT you are right.
Good Shooting!
P.S. I like to think that "What goes around....comes around" so maybe it will soon.  |
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Victor
USA
34 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2006 : 10:25:59 PM
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| I believe it was clear in my initial message that our team was unaware of this particular 23 Rule; it applies only to the playoffs. As for the rest of the season, we have on our team a 7, 6, 5, two fours and two threes. On any given league night, we could play several combinations and stil remain within the 23 Rule. On this particular night, not all players were available, and frankly we thought we could field our three best players, hope to win the three of five and be on our way to the next round. Alas, you're right: our team leadership (nor followship for that matter) was aware of having to have a team on site that could concievably remain within the 23 rule; particularly since we weighed in with our 7, 6, and 5. As I also said, we were wrong! On the other hand, in the name of good sportsmanship, the other team could have and (perhaps) should have, said something. It was obvious that they knew and we played into their hands. As you said: what goes around comes around. |
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2006 : 11:54:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug Gill
First things first. First, Pages 33 and 34 of the "APA Team Manual" define the 23 Rule. According to what I read, a team is NEVER to be allowed to break the 23 Rule. Second, did your captain not know about the 23 Rule and if so chose to ignore it? Lastly, how did your team ever field a team without a 23 Rule violation based on the skill levels stated. If this was due to natural skill increases, were the League Operators asked how your team could play and still comply with the rule.
It's also on pages 39 & 40 of the 1994-1996 manual
It's on pages 33 & 34 of the 1996-1998 manual
It's on pages 34 & 35 of the 1998-2000 manual
It's on pages 33 - 35 of the 2000-2002 manual
It's on pages 34 - 36 of the 2002-2004 manual
I bring this up because of the numbers I see when I pull up the FPT's roster. Not the skill levels, the membership numbers:
00245
00352
00354
00367
00368
03741
06777
Those are some mighty low membership numbers, low enough that every edition of the team manual since we started has passed through the hands of FPT's members. The rule hasn't changed, it's the most important rule in the book, and there's no excuse for long-standing members like most of FPT to not know it. There's nothing that says you have to have members "on site" to comply with the 23 rule, and there's no special playoff version. The playoffs are mentioned in that section, though. Specifically, it says the 23 rule still applies in the playoffs, and you can't field three strong players in an effort to take the first three matches, with the intention of forfeiting if one of them loses. In fact, the rule specifically states that the players you use to comply with the 23 rule DO NOT have to be present. Not only have you been in the league forever and didn't know the rule, you didn't bother to check the book before posting here.
Yes, the sportsmanlike thing to do would have been to say "excuse me FPT, but if you play the 7 now you will break the 23 rule." How many teams, down 2-0 in the playoffs, would you expect to actually do this? In fact, a little birdie told me WCT was about to allow FPT to change the player in the third match when one of FPT's players got "in the face" of WCT's captain. If that's true, I don't blame WCT for calling the match. Sportsmanship goes both ways.
Phil
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Torsten
USA
401 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2006 : 12:59:21 PM
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Something got lost in the discussion, I believe. A large part of FPT's anger stems from the manner in which the situation was presented to them. To my understanding, the moment SL7 on FPT broke, making the transgression of the 23 point boundary inevitable, one of the players (not the captain) walked up to FPT and said, "You guys just forfeited! Thanks!!!" in a very smug demeanor. The phrase "spirit of the game" seems to get thrown around a lot. Fine. Enforce the rules. Don't be a smug son of a bitch while doing so, pardon my French. Also, to set the record straight, saying a member of FPT "got in the face" is a bit of an overstatement.
The saying "it's just a game" has always rubbed me the wrong way because it stops becoming just a game when you have a vested interest in the outcome. Nobody likes to lose, but entering in a contest with only two possible outcomes leaves losing as a possibility, and in some cases, a probability. Knowing this, why can't we behave like adults and have a good time?
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy." |
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2006 : 2:54:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Torsten
Also, to set the record straight, saying a member of FPT "got in the face" is a bit of an overstatement.
That's just how it was presented to us, and why it was quoted in my reply. I believe there was something else going on and that both sides contributed to the outcome. I could hear FPT's players shouting in the background when the call(s) came in. That was my point.
Phil
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Torsten
USA
401 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2006 : 4:07:45 PM
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I realize that, Phil. I didn't mean to imply you were jumping to any conclusions.
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy." |
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Tink
1 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2006 : 4:08:02 PM
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just to throw my two cents in and maybe clear up my name a bit seeing how in the main post it was kinda a catorgized thing.
it was not strategized. if it was i was left out the prep talk.
as far i as i was informend we...lets not say we cause i didnt do anything but walk around confused. someone was calling an official to check on the rule at the same time someone else went ahead and started the match with out it being called on hold.
YES!!! it was done and said very unsportsman like but dont catorigize a team by one persons actions... funny i say this cause thats what happened again latter. people where angry on both sides and things where said to push buttons.
im sorry if the way it was said they came out like a well best way to put it asshole. but for the ass on our team there was one on theres.
i dont know if this is the place to post this. but here is where i posted it. i am very willing to talk to anyone about what i saw and heard to maybe help calm a few people down and maybe make this game fun again. i would like to be able to play pool with people with out them wispering to them selfs "thats that one team, or player"javascript:insertsmilie(' ')
Frown
"Give me a man who is man enough to give himself just to the woman who is worth him. If that woman were me I would love him alone and forever." Francesca Bruni, casanova |
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Doug Gill
USA
92 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2006 : 07:25:58 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Victor
I believe it was clear in my initial message that our team was unaware of this particular 23 Rule; it applies only to the playoffs. As for the rest of the season, we have on our team a 7, 6, 5, two fours and two threes. On any given league night, we could play several combinations and stil remain within the 23 Rule. On this particular night, not all players were available, and frankly we thought we could field our three best players, hope to win the three of five and be on our way to the next round. Alas, you're right: our team leadership (nor followship for that matter) was aware of having to have a team on site that could concievably remain within the 23 rule; particularly since we weighed in with our 7, 6, and 5. As I also said, we were wrong! On the other hand, in the name of good sportsmanship, the other team could have and (perhaps) should have, said something. It was obvious that they knew and we played into their hands. As you said: what goes around comes around.
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Keith
USA
242 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2006 : 5:29:48 PM
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I would like to start this off with hello. Many things have been said of me and my team in the past couple days and i feel that some of them are slightly out of line. I am the player that was put up against the sl 7 and was the player that was facing victor two weeks prior. All that you have heard about the happenings two weeks ago is that victor had an easy three ball run for the win. You did not hear that it was my turn and that I also had the runout for the win. I thought that I showed victor that I can make that shot that he thought was impossible after the match. So I dont see how anyone but me can feel cheated on that subject. As for the 23 rule out team captian expressed to me that he told your team captian he could not do that before any matches weere ever played. To go a little further on this one we were not going to take the win in that manner. After it was established that that was the match if we so wished we offered to throw the third game out the window. We would continue to play and win the right way if it was possible. One of the players on the other team decided to join our teams private meeting off to the side to make sure that we were ok and ready to play. This player decided to rub into our faces how there team took us 4-1 two weeks prior and tell us how we were the wild card and did not even deserve to be there. The feeling that I got hearing this come out of his mouth was in his mind we were here to lay down and take it so the first place team could just play for the win in the final round of the playoffs. That we were only there as a tool to make sure there team did not get rusty. That is when our team captian decided that enough was enough and took the forfiet. Besides we could have gone about this in a worse way. I could have played the match and never let you know. Then notify Phil that you broke the 23 rule and left you to wonder what happened without ever showing my face in this. What goes around comes around right. Ill take mine and make sure you take yours for these postings were you only told half of the story in both cases.
PS. my name is Keith Powell and for those of you that know me you know that I love the odds against me. |
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2006 : 6:06:47 PM
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Ok, that's enough back and forth on this topic. What happened has happened, it's done and over with. My suggestion is drop it.
Phil
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Three Basic Ways To Win At Pool
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