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poolguy
USA
54 Posts |
 Posted - 02/02/2008 : 9:21:44 PM
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I've read the recent thread on double hit etiquette (I posted there as well) and I've still got some questions.
I noted that Phil and others have said that a 3rd party needs to watch for a double hit or it is not a foul ... even if it were to be a double hit. Since double hits are usually hard to agree on, this makes sense. But I can't find anywhere in the Team Manual or the Local Bylaws where it says a 3rd party needs to watch for a double hit or it cannot be called. So, that's question #1. I must have missed it, but where is this in the rules?
In our match this past week, another team was playing on the next table, and I was at our table. I stopped to watch, because the player was at the foot rail (near me) and was lining up the cue ball to shoot the 8-ball the entire length of the table, into the corner. The cue ball was at least 4 inches from the 8-ball. The coach was at the end of the table, gesturing so the player would move the cue to correct his aim. The coach left, and the player shot. It was clearly a double hit, even though it was from a fair distance. Nobody called it and the game went to the shooter. Now comes question #2. Since this was a situation where a player had a low likelihood of fouling, would it have been called a foul if someone had seen the bad hit and callled the foul? Or, does the lack of a 3rd party mean that this absolutely could not be called a foul? Note that the coach told the player and the other team that it was a double hit ... but after the game had been closed out in favor of the shooter. (My ethics would be to count the game for the shooter, but if the opponent questioned the hit I'd own up to a double hit and give the game to the opponent, since this was a foul while shooting the 8-ball ... even without a 3rd party. I believe the coach would have done the same.)
Now for question #3. Is a player guilty of any infraction if the player double hits on purpose, if there is no 3rd party watching? I would never do that, but there are players who take advantage of every quirk in the rules.
Question 4: is there any other situation where a 3rd party needs to be called so that a foul is counted?
It only hurts if you miss. |
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rhaydt
USA
109 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2008 : 4:27:33 PM
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| In the APA it is always the shooters call unless a 3rd party is watching the shot. More often than not the shooter that double hits the cue ball is someone who does not understand the foul, thus you will need a 3rd party to call the foul. The more experienced players can feel the double hit and will call the foul on themselves. As far as intentional fouls such as push shots. They are usually quite obvious and can be considered bad sportsmanship, but once again it is the shooters call as far as calling a foul. |
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Kerry Randolph
USA
172 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 10:02:25 AM
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Question #1.
unfortunately I do not have a copy of the rules with me right now so I do not know where it is in there.
Question 2
I would not call your situation a double hit. I would call it cue ball interferance. If you touch the cue ball other then initiating the shot it is a foul (other than double hits when cue ball and object ball are very close). Most common is when someone draws the cue ball back into their stick. With the cue ball and object ball so far apart a double hit is in my opinion the wrong call here.
To go a little further if you shoot a shot and accidentally move with your stick or hand a ball and the cue ball travels through the spot where the ball you bumped was in before you moved it, than it is ball in hand. You can not alter in any way the flight of the cue ball, or anything that might affect the flight. by moving the ball that the cue ball would have hit you affected the flight of the cue ball. (sorry if I said that in a confusing way)
Question 3
Yes they are guilty and should be written up on the sportsmanship form, but it can not be called a double hit if not watched.
Question 4
The double hit is the only thing that has to be watched to call it. If there is a shot that could result in a foul then it can be watched by a third party. If there is no third party then it is the shooters call. No matter how obvious the foul was if the shooter says it was a good hit then it was a good hit. So having close shots watched is a good idea
I hope this helps
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Edited by - Kerry Randolph on 02/05/2008 10:02:49 AM |
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poolguy
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 3:47:48 PM
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Kerry,
Thanks for the reply. I don't agree with two of your points. Although I should have realized that for any questionable foul a 3rd (independent) party should watch ... it doesn't need to be specifically called out in the rules. Duh.
What I don't agree with:
1. A double hit doesn't have to be when the cue ball and object ball are close. All that is required is that your follow-through is longer than the distance between cue ball and object ball. The double hit I saw was caused by a follow-through that was about 5 inches long when the distance between the cue ball and object ball was less than that distance. It is not cue ball interference at all.
2. In the same answer you say that if I move a ball and the cue ball moves through that "space" it is a foul. I do not see that in the rules and from other input from Phil I do not think this is a foul in the APA (although it should be ... and if I move a ball and "any" ball moves through the space it occupied that should also be a foul). I would prefer a rule that basically said that if you move a ball and it affects the final lay of the table it is a foul. But the APA rules are specific and the only foul is when you move a ball (or balls) and the cue ball contacts the moved ball.
The difficulty I have with requiring a 3rd party is that there are some fouls that are not anticipated ... such as the double hit mentioned in my post. I would never expect a double hit from a knowledgeable player when the cue ball and object ball are a large distance from one another. I quess that in these cases, if the shooter disagrees, the answer is that it is not a foul. Although it could be a sportsmanship issue, as you point out.
John
It only hurts if you miss. |
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 3:53:49 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Kerry Randolph[/i]
To go a little further if you shoot a shot and accidentally move with your stick or hand a ball and the cue ball travels through the spot where the ball you bumped was in before you moved it, than it is ball in hand. You can not alter in any way the flight of the cue ball, or anything that might affect the flight. by moving the ball that the cue ball would have hit you affected the flight of the cue ball. (sorry if I said that in a confusing way)
Uh, no. No calls based on what would have happened (with the exception of [i]game losing[/i] situations).
Most of John's questions can be answered by simply stating that the shooter can call a foul on himself/herself at any time, including a double-hit foul. It's covered by the "common sense" clause in the Team Manual. You just can't call the double-hit foul "from the chair".
Phil
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Kerry Randolph
USA
172 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2008 : 08:25:06 AM
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I had this same thing happen at nationals a couple of years ago. One of my players was shooting a hard draw, almost masse shot. When he executed it and tried to get his stick out of the way he bumped a ball and moved it out of the way. The cue ball drew back and went through the spot the ball previously occupied. Now if that ball had been there the cue ball had a very slim chance of scratching (I didn't think so) the other team called a referee and he gave them ball in hand. I discussed it with the referee for several minutes trying to understand. Basically by moving the ball my player changed what the cue ball would have done.
On the bright side I had a few beers and played some pool with the referee later that night.
It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt |
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Torsten
USA
401 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2008 : 1:35:32 PM
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The way I understand it is, only two people can call a foul. One is a third party who has been agreed upon to watch a hit. The other is the player/shooter.
Of course, if the shooter's captain or one of his/her teammates sees him/her foul, that person should gently suggest as much to the shooter and in the interest of fairness and sportsmanship secure a ball-in-hand for the opposition.
However, I would like to make one thing clear. If you are on the opposition, and sitting 15 feet away from the table with a bad angle, under no circumstance is it acceptable, at least not to me, to yell "FOUL!!!". It ISN'T your call to make. Futhermore, when three members of the shooting team, including the shooter, the coach who just spent 45 seconds in a timeout explaining the shot to the shooter, and another experienced player, have a closer, unobstructed view of the shot, it's also bad form to make a snide remark about "simple physics" when your assessment is disagreed with.
In my opinion, if you believe a shot to have resulted in illegal contact, ask the shooter and his/her captain if the hit was good. In league the promotes spirit of the game, honesty, sportsmanship, and fair play, you would hope to get the truth.
Lastly, and this comment is directed at all the low ranked, or inexperienced players in the league. If you think you have fouled, it is definitely the right thing to do to give your opponent the ball in hand. If you are not sure, you should ask your captain. "Hey, I think I might have fouled there. I don't think I (met whatever criteria of the shot)." Your captain will either inform you that a) he/she didn't see so you make the call b)that you in fact did foul or c) that your hit was in fact good and not a ball in hand. BUT PLEASE, if someone on the opposing team tells you that you've fouled and you don't think you did, get your captain's opinion before picking the ball up and handing it over.
I don't think that there are many people in our area that will try to bully another player into making a bad call on themselves, and I certainly don't think that to be the case in the aforementioned anecdote (a true story by the way). However, I still think it was handled poorly, or at the very least, improperly. As much as we talk about the enjoyment of the game, it is a competition, and I understand that. We're doing our best to try to win, and if you're not, you're doing a disservice to a beautiful game (never mind sandbagging). When the competitive juices flow, it's sometimes tougher to monitor and edit what we say. That said, sportsmanship requires you to at least try. And I'm not talking about saying "POO!" after missing an easy shot. We've all been there. But if you're not at the table, you're limited to "inquiring" about the validity of a shot. And if this contrary to my belief is NOT the way, it ought to be.
I think the worst time to have a heart attack would be during a game of charades... or during a game of fake heart attack. |
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Double Hit Questions
