| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Showtime
USA
73 Posts |
 Posted - 07/31/2008 : 11:26:11 PM
|
I've seen MVP rankings discussed here before, but I believed it was related to 8 ball. I was wondering if there could be a better way to determine the MVP in 9 ball. I don't expect the way it is done to change. I'm just curious what people think.
The first idea I came up with still takes into account if you lost not only if you won. It seems to me that a simple way to keep track of an MVP would be to add the points a person scores on a weekly basis (i.e. 20-0, 19-1, 18-2, etc.). Even if a person were to lose they could still collect points. I.e. a SL 5 plays an SL 6, the SL 6 wins 15-5, the SL 6 collects 15 MVP points and the SL 5 collects 5 MVP points.
The second idea (still takes into account if you lost) would be to multiply the score by your opponents Skill Level. I.e. a SL 5 plays an SL 6, the SL 6 wins 15-5, the SL 6 collects 90 MVP points (6x15=90)and the SL 5 collects 25 MVP points (5x5=25).
What do you think? |
|
|
Moose Dragon
USA
128 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2008 : 09:05:31 AM
|
I like the second Idea with just a few minor details dialed in.
As you said you multiply the points by the skill level. Also add a point for each defensive shot, subtract two points for each accidental ball in hand you give your opponent, add three points for every ball in hand you force your opponent into, subtract 4 point for every ball in hand your opponent forces you into, 2 points if you win the flip, three if you win the lag, if you go rackless you get 50 points, if you give up a rackless night you loose all your points for the night and are docked 50 extra points, if you miscue you lose a point, if you miscue and make the ball you get 5 points, jump shots, masse or three or more rail kick shots are all worth 10 points each if they are successfull, for every ball that you make leave the table deduct 1 point, you lose 1 point every time your opponent has to ask you for the chalk back, if you scratch and retrieve the cue ball for your opponent add 5 points, if you fail to pull the balls after winning a game you lose 40 points, take off 5 points for every time out, for every second you take over 20 for each shot there is a 1 point penalty, if a player goes over 45 seconds the penalty multiplies exponentially, so if you go 46 seconds you add 45 and 46, for 50 seconds you add 45,46,47,48,49, and 50, we will have to outfit every bar or poolhall we play in with a digital clock that has a seconds readout, for every foul word that is said 15 points deducted, for every compliment you give your opponent 15 points are added, if you show up on time for your match add 10 points, if your opponent has to wait for any reason deduct 20 points, Ladies if you show some cleavage add 50 points, guys if you show any chest hair deduct 50 points, Ladies if you use your womanly guile to outwit your male opponent deduct 10 points, guys if you fall for said guile deduct 20 points, if you buy your opponent a drink add 25 points, if you are wearing white after memorial day deduct 30 points, if you are wearing an appropriate holiday outfit add 50 points,
I think this formula will work very well at giving us a true MVP. The score sheets might get a touch more difficult, and possibly a little longer, the score keepers might actually have to pay attention to the game, but I dont see any real inconveniences to anybody.
What do you think TAZ can we get this implemented for next season? |
Edited by - Moose Dragon on 08/01/2008 09:05:54 AM |
 |
|
|
MGB
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2008 : 09:06:41 AM
|
I like your second idea, but your math seems to be wrong...
I believe, given your scenario, the SL6 wins and would collect 75 points (5x15), while the SL5 would collect 30 (6x5) points. |
|
|
|
Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2008 : 10:07:41 AM
|
Just to play devil's advocate, what should be worth more, skunking a 1 or losing 16-4 to a 6?
Any calculation that gives you points when you lose opens the door for a player to go winless the entire session and still win MVP. Any calculation that reduces your total if you lose (subtract points, multiply by win %, etc.) will serve as disincentive to play matches at the end of the session. Any method that does not take into account the skill level of your opponent will make everyone want to play weaker players all session long. We want a system that will reward you for accepting a challenge and rising to meet that challenge.
Phil
|
|
|
|
Historytchr
15 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2008 : 3:31:25 PM
|
The first idea I came up with still takes into account if you lost not only if you won. It seems to me that a simple way to keep track of an MVP would be to add the points a person scores on a weekly basis (i.e. 20-0, 19-1, 18-2, etc.). Even if a person were to lose they could still collect points. I.e. a SL 5 plays an SL 6, the SL 6 wins 15-5, the SL 6 collects 15 MVP points and the SL 5 collects 5 MVP points.
The second idea (still takes into account if you lost) would be to multiply the score by your opponents Skill Level. I.e. a SL 5 plays an SL 6, the SL 6 wins 15-5, the SL 6 collects 90 MVP points (6x15=90)and the SL 5 collects 25 MVP points (5x5=25).
What do you think?
[/quote]
I think your first idea is much better than your second. Here is the problem with your second idea concerning MVP points. Currently I am a SL 3 in 9 ball and let's say that one night I am playing a SL 6 so I have to make 25 points before he/she makes 46. I win the match 12-8. If we were to employ your second idea I would gain 36 MVP points and my opponent would receive 48 MVP points. Should the person who lost the match really receive more MVP points then the winner? |
|
|
|
Showtime
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2008 : 8:24:07 PM
|
quote:
[i]Originally posted by MGB[/i]
[br]I like your second idea, but your math seems to be wrong...
I believe, given your scenario, the SL6 wins and would collect 75 points (5x15), while the SL5 would collect 30 (6x5) points.
My math was off and you are correct it would be 75. |
|
|
|
Showtime
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2008 : 8:42:18 PM
|
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Phil[/i]
[br]Just to play devil's advocate, what should be worth more, skunking a 1 or losing 16-4 to a 6?
Any calculation that gives you points when you lose opens the door for a player to go winless the entire session and still win MVP. Any calculation that reduces your total if you lose (subtract points, multiply by win %, etc.) will serve as disincentive to play matches at the end of the session. Any method that does not take into account the skill level of your opponent will make everyone want to play weaker players all session long. We want a system that will reward you for accepting a challenge and rising to meet that challenge.
Phil
I see your point Phil. But I highly doubt some one that lost every game would ever be an MVP. Skunking an SL 1 would only give you 20 pts. and realistically, could an SL 2, 3, or 4, skunk a 1 too. This is still only 20 pts if any SL level were to skunk an SL 1. It is questionable if losing 16-4 to an SL 6 is more valuable, but I wouldn't rule it completely out.
I agree, "We want a system that will reward you for accepting a challenge and rising to meet that challenge." We could even take out the idea for scoring on the loses.
Assuming a 10 week schedule for ease of calculations, who deserves the MVP more, a person that wins 12-8 every week against all SL 6's or a player that wins 16-4 against all SL 5's? Which player is more valuable? 6x12x10=720 pts. and 16x5x10=800 pts.
Obviously, we could play with the numbers so they could read what we want to make our point, but I believe it is a little more accurate to multiply the winning score by the loser's SL ranking, giving the winner the MVP points.
Thank you for entertaining the discussion.
|
|
|
|
Showtime
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2008 : 8:48:16 PM
|
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Historytchr[/i]
[br]
I think your first idea is much better than your second. Here is the problem with your second idea concerning MVP points. Currently I am a SL 3 in 9 ball and let's say that one night I am playing a SL 6 so I have to make 25 points before he/she makes 46. I win the match 12-8. If we were to employ your second idea I would gain 36 MVP points and my opponent would receive 48 MVP points. Should the person who lost the match really receive more MVP points then the winner?
No,you were using my new screwy math? Your scenario actually works out that you would get 72 pts (6x12=72) and the SL 6 would only get 24 pts (3x8=24). |
|
|
|
Showtime
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2008 : 8:50:47 PM
|
Moose Dragon,
I like your 17th idea divided by your 4th idea added to your 2nd idea times your 13th idea. |
|
|
|
MGB
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2008 : 1:41:21 PM
|
Question, a little off topic, but it does have to do with MVP rankings. In 8 ball, what happens if you end up tied for the lead, in the mvp standings? Is there a tie-breaker of some sort?
For that matter, how are ties broken for teams ? |
Edited by - MGB on 08/02/2008 4:30:32 PM |
|
|
|
Moose Dragon
USA
128 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2008 : 2:55:49 PM
|
| Pistols at dawn |
|
|
|
Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2008 : 7:14:36 PM
|
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Moose Dragon[/i]
[br]Pistols at dawn
Don't be ridiculous Kerry. It's high noon.
There are no tiebreakers, each person tied for the lead is invited to the MVP tournament.
Phil
|
|
|
|
movistar
193 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2008 : 09:31:05 AM
|
this is a simple solution for BOTH eight ball and nine ball....
FORGET the ratings and points.... just give a player one point for each match won and the math is simple.....
win 8 matches (not games)... get eight points
lose 5 matches get 0 points
that way there is NO advantage to playing a higher ranking player just to "get his rating points" |
|
|
|
bikercowboy
105 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2008 : 09:36:39 AM
|
| not so simple...is tougher to beat higher skilled level player most of the time |
|
|
|
Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2008 : 10:25:11 AM
|
quote:
[i]Originally posted by movistar[/i]
[br]this is a simple solution for BOTH eight ball and nine ball....
FORGET the ratings and points.... just give a player one point for each match won and the math is simple.....
win 8 matches (not games)... get eight points
lose 5 matches get 0 points
that way there is NO advantage to playing a higher ranking player just to "get his rating points"
Did you mean to say "there is no incentive to accept the challenge of playing a better player, because you can get your point by playing the weakest player on the other team"?
There's another problem with this - teams of five would have an advantage over teams of eight, because each player plays more often.
There is no perfect calculation. MVP, by it's very nature, is not quantifiable. But we have to use something (we are NOT going to make it a popularity contest with voting), so we choose something that gives you an incentive to play better players and rewards you for winning those matches.
Phil
|
|
|
|
Historytchr
15 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2008 : 2:50:49 PM
|
There is always the option of getting rid of the MVP points all together. After all, this is a team sport. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
9 Ball MVP rankings
