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Torsten
USA
401 Posts |
 Posted - 02/24/2009 : 11:34:07 AM
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One of my teammates brough this situation to my attention last night, and I want to clear this up once and for all. YOU DO NOT HAVE THE OPTION TO REPLACE AN OBJECT BALL THAT IS ACCIDENTALLY MOVED BEFORE THE SHOT OR AFTER THE SHOT. It is not a foul to accidentally move a ball other than the cue, however, THAT BALL MUST BE REPLACED.
There is no option. There is no, "Nah, we'll just leave it there." You don't get to choose if the ball gets put back or not. It's as clear as day in the rules. THE BALL MUST BE REPLACED.
This rant is in reference to a specific situation involving specific players. I want to be clear that the participants who were mistaken about the rule WERE NOT INTENTIONALLY TRYING TO CIRCUMVENT ANY RULES. They were simply not aware of this rule. They're both as honest as Abe Lincoln and I consider them my friends. This is not an attack on their character by any stretch.
It just bugs me that this rule, which has been updated to read as it is now for quite some time, is still not known to people. Perhaps we need to bring this up at the next captains' meeting. And people, BRING YOUR RULE BOOKS TO THE MATCHES WITH YOU!!! They're useful. Okay, now that my blood is officially boiling, Sporn. Out.
I think the worst time to have a heart attack would be during a game of charades... or during a game of fake heart attack. |
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BigRigTom
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2009 : 11:50:31 AM
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Goop point Torsten!
We had an incident about a week ago where a Skill level 6 had ball in hand and while placing the cue ball on the table his knuckles (of the hand holding the cue ball) brushed another ball moving it about an inch over.
He set the cue ball down, moved the other ball back then reached back for the cue ball again to more precisely position it for his shot.
When I pointed out to him that it was a foul he was shocked. We let it go and continued to play but this is another rule that has been around for a while I believe and I was somewhat surprised that a level 6 was not familiar with it.
So happens it is in the same rule,"Rule # 9 Fouls startin on page 48" your case is paragraph "G" and my example is paragraph "I" on pages 50 and 51 of the "Official Team Manual for League Years 2008/2009 & 2009/2010.
BigRigTom
http://hardingersystems.com/BAT-Forum to discuss Billiards and Trucking or anything that interest you! |
Edited by - BigRigTom on 02/24/2009 11:50:54 AM |
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D-RACK
USA
321 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2009 : 1:57:16 PM
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Hey guys WHAT page in the rule book this way if some argues with me i know where to tell them to shove it!!!
LOL
LMK |
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Torsten
USA
401 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2009 : 2:07:32 PM
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Thank you for pointing out my omission. I had planned to post the page number. The following is excerpted directly from page 50 of the Team Manual.
"It is not a foul, however, to accidentally move any other balls
(including the 8-ball) unless, during his turn at the table, a player moves a
ball and it in turn comes in contact with the cue ball. Any balls moved
accidentally during a shot <b>must</b> be replaced by the opponent after the
shot is over and all balls have stopped rolling. If it occurs before the shot,
it <b>must</b> be replaced before the shot is taken."
I think the worst time to have a heart attack would be during a game of charades... or during a game of fake heart attack. |
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Showtime
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2009 : 11:52:04 PM
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We came across this situation the first week of 8 ball this season. My team argued that the ball had to be replaced, but the rules do not state who needs to replace it. Is it the shooter or is it the opponent that isn't shooting.
Afterall, what if the shooter relpaces the ball into a more favorable postition for themself?
So, does it come down to the opponent replacing the ball? And, what if the opponent wasn't watching?
The rule is still ambiguos. Thus, we had the opponent replace the ball, which they said they didn't see move. So, the ball stayed where it was accidentally moved.
Then, the next question comes up...
...upon stroking the cue ball, a player accidently hits an object ball with his stick, and a couple to several balls on the table are in motion.
Does this player try to replace the ball while the balls are in motion or do you wait for them to come to a complete stop. So if you wait for a complete stop, do you still replace the ball if another ball that was in motion ends up hitting this object ball in its "Accidental" postion?
What if the cue ball hits this ball in it's accidental position? (should be a foul)
What about if another ball hits this ball in its accidental position and then comes in contact with the cue ball? Is this now a foul? |
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Torsten
USA
401 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2009 : 11:08:15 AM
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As Taz and Phil often say, it's impossible for a rule book to implicitly address every possible situation that may occur. That said, I will do my best to answer for you those that you have presented.
To my understanding, if I'm the shooter and accidentally nudge an object ball, you, my opponent, are the one to replace it. Sure, if you were dishonest, you could fudge that spot by a bit. But would you? I don't know. But I do know this. I have nearly 480 matches of APA experience, and in nearly all of those, there has been an opportunity for my opponent to do something shady. And 99.9% of the time, they take the high road and be honest; announcing they'd fouled when nobody else had seen it, hurling themselves in front of me when I'm about to shoot the wrong suit, whatever. Cheating, while I'm sure it exists, is not a pandemic in our league.
If a player while striking the cue ball, accidentally sends other balls in motion, it is my understanding that this player should wait until all balls in motion come to rest before fixing the position of those accidentally moved. If one of the balls accidentally propelled into motion comes in contact with the cue ball, it is a foul as you correctly surmised. In this specific case, I believe the rule book specifically says that none of the accidentally moved balls get replaced.
If another object ball comes in contact with an accidentally moved ball, it is NOT a foul. However, if an object ball comes in contact with an accidentally moved object ball and then that accidentally moved ball hit’s the cue ball… We probably could draw this out for a while.
While this is probably oversimplifying (and I fully expect a scathing rebuke from our respected operators), if the cue ball (and remmber, the cue is always alive) has its natural course altered by an accidentally moved ball, it’s a foul. Anything I missed or got wrong?
I think the worst time to have a heart attack would be during a game of charades... or during a game of fake heart attack. |
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2009 : 4:00:39 PM
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Now why would we scathingly rebuke you, Torsten? You did a fairly decent job of answering the questions.
Here it is in a nutshell. If you accidentally move object balls, the opponent must replace them. If it happens before the shot, they must be replaced before the shot. If it happens during the shot, they must be replaced after all balls have stopped rolling. It doesn't matter how many other balls hit them, the accidentally moved balls must be replaced by the opponent (the second instance of "must be replaced" in the team manual also applies to the opponent). If the cue ball contacts one of the accidentally moved balls, it is a foul and nothing is replaced.
All of the other what-if scenarios are irrelevant. There are way too many of them to detail every possibility, and way too much judgement involved in many of them to even try (what if the shooter was on the 8 and accidentally moved a ball that hit the cue ball and kept it from scratching? What if the cue ball rolled through the space previously occupied by the accidentally moved ball and then scratched?) Don't even start down that path, it only leads to confusion, disagreements, arguments, and hard feelings. Just do what the book says, and nothing else.
There's nothing in the book that says the opponent can't ask the shooter where the accidentally moved ball should go. If you are the opponent, just do the best you can to get it back where it was.
Phil
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Showtime
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2009 : 4:17:32 PM
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| Thank you all. |
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D-RACK
USA
321 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2009 : 1:59:53 PM
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What Page in the Book Phil?
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movistar
193 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2009 : 12:44:42 PM
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hey phil... while you are in your "nutshell"... here is one other scenario I would like to get your professional answer.
this is a "what if"... but it happens ALL THE TIME!
a player makes a shot and moves an object ball at the same time, the que ball goes around the table , hits 2 rails and ends up going thru the position that the moved object ball occupied before it was moved, not hitting the ball, but ending up in a position that it would NOT have been in if the ball had NOT been moved, thus "altering" the path of the que ball without touching it.
I think this should be a foul.
if the table cannot be "restored" after balls have been moved.. it should result in a foul... players would soon learn NOT to move balls around...
I think this rule was designed to solve small problems when a ball is accidently "touched" and moves a little, NOT when a ball is "touched" HARD and rolls around the table creating havoc.
THANKS FOR READING
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2009 : 4:38:36 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by movistar[/i]
[br]hey phil... while you are in your "nutshell"... here is one other scenario I would like to get your professional answer.
this is a "what if"... but it happens ALL THE TIME!
a player makes a shot and moves an object ball at the same time, the que ball goes around the table , hits 2 rails and ends up going thru the position that the moved object ball occupied before it was moved, not hitting the ball, but ending up in a position that it would NOT have been in if the ball had NOT been moved, thus "altering" the path of the que ball without touching it.
I think this should be a foul.
if the table cannot be "restored" after balls have been moved.. it should result in a foul... players would soon learn NOT to move balls around...
I think this rule was designed to solve small problems when a ball is accidently "touched" and moves a little, NOT when a ball is "touched" HARD and rolls around the table creating havoc.
THANKS FOR READING
The previous position of a moved object ball is a judgement call. Sure, in some cases you can say FOR SURE that the cue ball would have hit the object ball had it not been moved, but in other cases you can't be as certain. What happens if I think it would have hit one-eighth of the object ball but you think it would have missed completely? Now we have to discuss it, probably argue about it for a minute, and one of us ends up thinking the other one is a cheater. That's the can of worms that your proposal would open up. By the book, it's not a foul, the opponent replaces the moved ball. No arguments, and no opportunity for an unscrupulous player to take advantage of the rules.
As for moving a little or a lot, you would have to define those terms. Is a lot more than an inch? Six inches? What if I think it moved six and a half inches and you think it moved five and seven-eighths inches?
Who decides if the table can be restored? The guy who gets ball-in-hand if it can't, or the guy who doesn't give up ball-in-hand if it can?
In the absence of an impartial judge, it's usually best to minimize the number of judgment calls that have to be made.
Phil
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D-RACK
USA
321 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2009 : 11:29:49 AM
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Good Anwser!!!
About time!!!
LOL
JK
But really Good Anwser!!!
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Keith
USA
242 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2009 : 10:16:24 PM
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I hope you aren't referring to me and ed. If this was the situation that was brought to your attention. You should know that ed hit the 4 into the cue ball and the cue moved quite a bit. One other thing you have to give Phil and maybe even Taz some credit for dealing with our calls. Even though we sometimes are not painting a clear picture.
Confucios say "Man who dip in other man's well often get crabs." |
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Torsten
USA
401 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2009 : 9:24:27 PM
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No Keith, I was not referring to that. The situation I was referring to did not involve a foul. It simply involved a ball being accidentally moved, and then the question being whether or not to replace it. The person who was called to watch the shot (and the one who asked my opinion when I saw him) correctly ruled that the ball must be replaced, while one of the participants in the match argued that replacing the ball was optional.
I'm not aware of your situation with Ed, but if no third party was asked to observe, the shooter makes the call.
I think the worst time to have a heart attack would be during a game of charades... or during a game of fake heart attack. |
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Keith
USA
242 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2009 : 02:09:35 AM
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Our situation was easily resolved and all parties agreed. I was pissed though because I wanted to see if he could get out of the jam he was in.
Hey I was just told that we are supposed to make the balls in the pockets. That makes a big difference. |
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movistar
193 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2009 : 8:32:39 PM
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maybe it is time to STOP teaching beginner players (or seasoned) that it is OK to touch or move balls around because we will "just move them back" if we can remember where they were!
a better rule that is easier to UNDERSTAND and enforce is >>>> IF you move any ball accidently, on purpose, or otherwise , whether it be one ball or three balls..it is a foul and opponent gets ball in hand.
players would just have to learn to be careful..
This is an easier rule to understand than the one of "having to hit a rail " after contacting the object ball. Beginning players have this rule and understand it is a ball in hand foul.
the new rule would prevent any misunderstanding of what happens if you "move a ball". be careful or it is a foul.... with no argument!
some more "food for thought"
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Replacing Balls Accidentally Moved
