| Author |
 Topic  |
|
grapevine
14 Posts |
 Posted - 03/16/2009 : 09:56:08 AM
|
| on a league night duing a match that had allready started, 2 or 3 games into the match...my player won the last rack and I was at the head of the table with my player giving him some tips on breaking while the table was being racked....the opposing captain approched us both and said, "how many time outs are you going to take?"....my player only gets one per rack. My question to you all is this..."when does the start of new rack begin? ...is it after the eight ball on the previous game is down? Or the moment the person breaking picks up the cue-nall to line up for his break? Or when?... I routinely talk to my players between shots for strategies or simply for support amoung other things.......P.S. I thought the opposing player was just kidding...but out of respect for the rules we did not take a time out for that particular game..... |
|
|
Derailed
USA
38 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2009 : 1:03:54 PM
|
| It is not a time out while racking. After a legal break, game on. |
 |
|
|
Moose Dragon
USA
128 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2009 : 3:37:41 PM
|
There is a line there somewhere. Typically between games it is no big deal to talk wih your player, however if you are coaching your player on how to break, or a better break than is that not helping with a shot, and is that not the definition of a time out. I think common sense says no time out has occurred. Now if a player lines up the cue ball and you tell him to stop and give him a better spot to break from or what english to use than yeah you just took a timeout. You are not supposed to help a player with a shot except for during a timeout.
Talking to players while the opponent is at the table is perfectly legal. When the opponent misses it is time to stop talking. Do not keep talking to your player telling them how to shoot the table they now have in front of them. I think everybody does just that.
Most of the time neither of these are any big deal. |
|
|
|
Keith
USA
242 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2009 : 9:23:06 PM
|
In my experience timeouts only happen DURING the game and not between. Just like between turns it does not get counted as a timeout. Example. My sl 2 tries to break and miscues. She then does it again. I tell her to put her bridge closer to the ball and follow through. She shoots and doesn't miscue. This is less information passed to a player than has happened between turns in a single game. My point is that it is not a timeout to help a player with their break as long as you aren't giving them lessons mid match. If this is wrong then we should start marking timeouts for saying things like chalk up between games.
Hey I was just told that we are supposed to make the balls in the pockets. That makes a big difference. |
|
|
|
Moose Dragon
USA
128 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2009 : 09:09:44 AM
|
I agree Keith
Lets say you have an SL 4 that complains after breaking the first game that he did not make anything on the break. He wins the game and gets ready to break again. He is lined up in his usual spot and you decide I am going to show him a different way to break. You stop him and show him a different break. Is this a time out? Say he makes the 8-ball on the break, then how much of a time out was that? I personally could care less if a player gets help with the break, but I do believe there is a point where it could be considered. |
|
|
|
Torsten
USA
401 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2009 : 09:59:19 AM
|
In my opinion, this is as much a courtesy issue as it is a rule. Hey, if your SL2 is having some trouble with the break, offer some words of encouragement and a tip. "Take your time, spread your feet another inch or two, breathe, and put your back into it." Whatever you want to say, have at it. But between frames is not the time for an intricate breaking lesson. Is it a timeout? Probably not. But have courtesy for your opponent. The break doesn't qualify as a "special" or "extraordinarily difficult" shot, so it shouldn't take longer than 20 seconds to break from the time the balls are racked.
I think the worst time to have a heart attack would be during a game of charades... or during a game of fake heart attack. |
|
|
|
josepha
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2009 : 11:01:17 AM
|
Excerpts from the Official Team Manual. While giving the player advice on how to break is considered Coaching, the number of Coaches are only counted during the game. The game starts after a leagal break.
Coaching is defined as giving advice to your teammate during his turn at the table. Some examples of what is considered coaching are: giving advice as to which ball to shoot, where to leave the cue ball, whether to shoot soft or hard, or whether or not to use english. These types of comments are considered coaching because they relate to the game situation.
Some examples of what is not considered coaching are telling a player which category of balls is his, reminding him to chalk up or to mark the pocket when shooting the 8-ball, or telling a player a foul has occurred. Comments such as “good hit” or “nice shot” or answering a player’s question concerning rules is not considered coaching. Any comments made to a player when it is not his turn at the table are not considered coaching.
So that coaching does not cause excessive delays in the progress of a match, players with skill levels of 4 and up may receive one coaching per game, and players with skill levels of 2 or 3 and nonrated players may receive two coachings per game.
AMJ |
|
|
|
BigRigTom
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2009 : 11:10:35 AM
|
quote:
[i]Originally posted by josepha[/i]
[br]Excerpts from the Official Team Manual. While giving the player advice on how to break is considered Coaching, the number of Coaches are only counted during the game. The game starts after a leagal break.
Coaching is defined as giving advice to your teammate during his turn at the table. Some examples of what is considered coaching are: giving advice as to which ball to shoot, where to leave the cue ball, whether to shoot soft or hard, or whether or not to use english. These types of comments are considered coaching because they relate to the game situation.
Some examples of what is not considered coaching are telling a player which category of balls is his, reminding him to chalk up or to mark the pocket when shooting the 8-ball, or telling a player a foul has occurred. Comments such as “good hit” or “nice shot” or answering a player’s question concerning rules is not considered coaching. Any comments made to a player when it is not his turn at the table are not considered coaching.
So that coaching does not cause excessive delays in the progress of a match, players with skill levels of 4 and up may receive one coaching per game, and players with skill levels of 2 or 3 and nonrated players may receive two coachings per game.
AMJ
Tap! Tap! Tap!
Thanks for a fine clarification and the actual rule book language.
BigRigTom
http://hardingersystems.com/BAT-Forum to discuss Billiards and Trucking or anything that interest you! |
|
|
|
Torsten
USA
401 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2009 : 4:09:50 PM
|
I'm still not sure that clarifies everything. You ARE allowed to talk to your player between frames. So when does a frame end and another begin? The second the 8 ball is sunk? When the balls are racked??? Again, spirit of the rules and courtesy applies better here. If you need to give your player some encouragement for the break, "Alrighty, let it rip!!," fine. You'll never hear a peep of objection from me. It's when the lesson begins, "Well, let's take it back to the origins of a thing called breaking. You see the ancient Mayans used to..." That's when I start getting a little miffed.
I think the worst time to have a heart attack would be during a game of charades... or during a game of fake heart attack. |
|
|
|
Keith
USA
242 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2009 : 02:24:21 AM
|
Moose I am not sure if you got my point. The example you gave can be given to a player in 5 to 10 seconds before the balls are even racked. The point I wanted to make is a quick comment should be fine but lining them up takes it too far. Example tonight my 3 broke the tip off his break cue. He broke with my break cue which is warped to high heaven. I told him to look down at the joint and turn it until he could see the line in the grain of the wood. This was important due to the way it is warped and if the line is up it gives the cue ball a little draw. This advise was given in 5 seconds before the rack was completed. My 3 went on to make around 7 to 8 balls on the break throughout his match. To me this is not a time out. If you have to go up to the table and give a lesson then you should have done it in a practice game and not take advantage of timeouts being counted during the rack and not between them. To me this is an issue of sportsmanship not what is written in the book. There are loopholes in rules and those who seek them out are the ones who cause heated debates. For example the 23 rule has to be caught by the opposing team to be enforced and some teams have tried to use that to gain an advantage in the playoffs no less.
Hey I was just told that we are supposed to make the balls in the pockets. That makes a big difference. |
|
|
|
Moose Dragon
USA
128 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2009 : 08:58:50 AM
|
Keith,
I agree with you 100%. I have no problem with a little advise, if it is a 10 point lesson on how to break then yeah something is wrong. you are right it is probably a sportsmanship issue. |
|
|
|
movistar
193 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2009 : 11:41:42 AM
|
the "MATCH" starts when the 2 players lag for the break.... any time after that is considered "during the game"... it is ok to talk to a player while they are seated between shots... however if a player is at the table preparing for the break on the next game, and you are telling, or showing him how to break, this should definitely be considered a coaching time out, because it is definitely advise on "HOW to shoot a shot (the break)...otherwise... talk to him and give him advise on "how to break" while he is seated and the other player is at the table...a foot note... if he is breaking, he obviously WON the previous game and doing pretty good even with a BAD break..... just my opinion... which usually doesn't count in APA... thanks for reading, 
|
|
|
|
Keith
USA
242 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2009 : 9:09:09 PM
|
If advice between racks is counted as a timeout then players should get a certain amount of timeouts per match and not per rack. Most of the breaking advice is to help a lower rated player hit the head ball of the rack and not how to hit the 8 in on the break. If you are counting this as a time out then make sure you never match a 1 or a 2 against another 1 or 2. You would find yourself waiting 10 to 20 minutes for a legal break every once in a while. Unless you could give them a quick piece of advice to help them make contact.
Hey I was just told that we are supposed to make the balls in the pockets. That makes a big difference. |
|
|
|
Victor
USA
34 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2009 : 1:33:00 PM
|
Awhile back one of my team members miscued two successive break attempts. I jokingly asked him if he would like a "time-out". The opposing team wanted to count it as a genuine time-out. A mini controversy ensued...I apologized, stating that I was just making, what I thought, was a humorous comment. It was quickly resolved and no time out was counted. But a word to the wise: be careful how others might take what might seem to you an innocent comment.
  |
|
|
|
Keith
USA
242 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2009 : 5:11:37 PM
|
I love how Phil and Taz have left this one up to player debate
Hey I was just told that we are supposed to make the balls in the pockets. That makes a big difference. |
|
|
|
Torsten
USA
401 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2009 : 08:26:57 AM
|
Not to add fuel to the fire... oh hell, who am I kidding? Let me pour some gasoline on this. This is not targeted at anyone in particular, but if you're the kind of player/captain who is going to get bent out of shape because an inexperienced player needs some guidance with the break, maybe you're taking it a bit too seriously. Use common sense. Remember, without our SL1s, 2s, and 3s, there is no league.
I think the worst time to have a heart attack would be during a game of charades... or during a game of fake heart attack. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
time-outs
