| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| movistar |
Posted - 05/29/2010 : 5:48:24 PM
just wanted my teammates to know that I have enjoyed playing with them the past few years, but, thanks to the rediculous 23 rule in 9 ball where there are 8's and 9's... there is NO MATHMATICAL chance for me to play this year and my team also qualified for regionals for the FIRST time and I will not be able to play with them....
good luck ! |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Keith |
Posted - 06/14/2010 : 02:27:45 AM
Richard,
That was not meant as a sleight. It makes a persons season if they win a match against you. I'm glad to hear your team will be back and look forward playing you guys again. I still owe you for the 18-2 beating you gave me last time.
PS I will always wait to play you in the last match if I have to. What can I say I'm a glutton for punishment.
Insert inspirational sentence here. |
| Torsten |
Posted - 06/13/2010 : 7:03:14 PM
Just saying, my issue is not with complaining, per se. It's that the same things get brought up by the same people without the proposal of a reasonable fix. Movistar, I get your frustration, but instead of getting frustrated, invite new players. You say you want to play with your friends. Great. Split the teams, 4 of you on one, 4 of you on the other. Get some new players in the fold, play out of the same home location and you'll still be with your friends most nights, and you'll have the privelege of making new ones.
I think the worst time to have a heart attack would be during a game of charades... or during a game of fake heart attack. |
| rhaydt |
Posted - 06/13/2010 : 02:27:16 AM
Keith,
The bad news for you is that we will be back in Fall. So you can play my 1 or wait to play me in the last match.
Richard
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| Keith |
Posted - 06/11/2010 : 3:20:36 PM
I don't know about you but I have yet to see a sl 1 in 8ball. Please stop comparing the 2 as if they are the same. I'm sure there are about as many 1s in the league as there are 8s and 9s. Phil posted how many 7+ players there are and that includes the 7s. If you are an 8 or 9 just think of it as an honor. You are now 1 in about 20 to 25 people (in our area) that can say they made it that far. If you can't play on your team due to the numbers then you started your season hoping you could get away with it in the first place. I'm not saying you have to have nothing but low players but get a good mix and know who you are bringing on your team.
Torsten I agree with you that it would be great to have a no bitching clause about the 23 rule like peoples individual ratings. If people come up with a great idea I think they should be able to post it too.
Richard its not just how many points you take up its also how your match went to. When you play and lose to the other team. Your team gets demoralized giving the other team an advantage. It would benefit your team (if you guys come back to Thursdays) to have you play last just in case you don't crush your opponent.
Insert inspirational sentence here. |
| Moose Dragon |
Posted - 06/11/2010 : 2:11:01 PM
Torsten,
Could you imagine how many baseball games would have their outcome changed if the basepaths were 1 foot shorter or longer? The plays at first base alone would be dramaticly changed. |
| Moose Dragon |
Posted - 06/11/2010 : 1:43:39 PM
Movistar,
I disagree with your thoughts of eliminating the 8s and 9s, because in a sense you are rewarding them and punishing the 1s 2s and 3s. In your suggested format if a 1, 2, or 3 became better they would automatically be at the same level as what was previously a 4 but now a 2. I don't know any 1s or 2s that could compete with any of the current 4s and not many 3s could either. On the other hand you are making it easier for 8s and 9s to play. A team could actually play a 7,6,5,4,1(which could be a 1,2,or 3). Those players with the skill levels in todays format would be a 9,8,7,6, and 3,2,or 1. This would make it easy to stack a team, and eliminate the need for new lower ranked players.
I think the very high ranked players have enough of an advantage already, I for one do not want to give them more.
I have played at the national level a couple of times and yes I ran into a few players that performed well above their skill level (an 18-2 spanking by a 4 still stings a little). I played with a 2 last year at 9 ball southwest challenge that shot out of her mind. Is she a 3? Probably not, but she played like a 4 for a couple of days in Vegas. On the other hand I was a 6 and played like a 4. Should I be moved down? Again, probably not.
I do agree that topics need to be discussed and am thankful for this forum to do so. I think Mr. Torsten is like myself and tired of hearing people complain about the 23 rule. Everybody thinks their idea is better than the current system, and can't understand why the APA or league operators don't immediatly implement it. I think a lot of ideas have good points, and maybe there is a better system, but I do believe the APA would adjust the current system if they found a better way to do it.
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| rhaydt |
Posted - 06/11/2010 : 1:26:21 PM
Movistar,
I do agree that 8's and 9's have problems with the 23 rule in 9-ball, but otherwise the 9-ball handicapping systems works quite well. Your idea of a linear scale does not work in the real world. As you get better making 10 balls gets easier so the spacing between skill levels needs to be geometric, which our current scale is. The difference between a 1 and a 2 is five balls, and it increases until skill level 8 which is ten balls. 9's get a little discount.
I am curious how well teams with 8's and 9's compete in higher level tournaments.
Is the percentage of 8's and 9's on teams in the nationals equal to the overall percentage in the league?
Do teams with 8's and 9's perform worse or better than other teams at the nationals?
What are the skill levels of the players that get the most playing time? The least playing time? Is it biased?
What is the distribution of skill levels that quit the league?
We would need this kind of information before a case could be made that the the league is unfairly biased against 8's and 9's. |
| movistar |
Posted - 06/11/2010 : 09:56:32 AM
this post turned out to be long, but it is worth reading
dear mr torsten....nope, we can't make a law restricting talking about the 23 rule.. that is what our country is all about
( and I hope our league) all responses are also allowed. but post are NOT being forced to be read or responded to or AGREED with... just another choice we have in our democracy. Thank you for your input.
your comparison about baseball was very good, however the base path is not a RULE... it is just like the size of a pool table, it is part of the game.. the "base path" doesn't prevent ANY player from playing the game... the 23 rule does for some.
"Moving the bases" would be similar to making the pool table pockets bigger or smaller. A lot of sports start out, make rules, and change them thru the years... the APA could do this also ! I can remember playing pool , when nobody ever heard of "ball in hand".
8 ball doesn't have a problem with "stacking" a team with higher level players, and I don't think 9 ball would have any problem if we re-evaluated ALL players SL in 9 ball, and made the rating system go from 1-7 JUST LIKE 8 BALL ! and keep the 23 rule.
.............you ask, "how do we do this"?
.
9 level is moved to a 7 and they are not the GOOD players , but the BEST, 8's the "Good" players are moved to a 6, 7's are moved to 5, 6's are moved to a 4, 5's are moved to 3, 4's are moved to 2, 3's 2's and 1's start out as a 1 skill level, but that should change quickly after they play one match ! all players SL will adjust as players win or lose.
1's race to 10 balls, 2's race to 20. 3's go to 30. 4's go to 40 balls, 5's race to 50, 6's go to 60, and 7's race to 70 balls.
If a 1 can make OVER 10 balls in a match, they will quickly be moved up, (or should) if the APA computer does it's "job".
the " SL rating" should be based on winning matches, NOT on how many INNINGS a person has !
.
I will do some research on this one, but I feel the rest of the country (APA) probably doesn't have this problem, because most of them are not rated like the ones in Southcoast APA. anybody that I have ever talked to in our league that has been to Nationals complain about the players from OTHER parts of the country that ALL seem to be UNDERATED, therefore they (other leagues) don't have a problem with the 23 rule.....everyone, please keep your thoughts coming... all responses are appreciated and it means that players are "thinking " about the 23 rule. have a great day... sorry this was so long
once again, I ask, why will this NOT work ?
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| Jeff Burkhammer |
Posted - 06/11/2010 : 08:46:26 AM
Good point T, but some here are actually talking about creating incentive for the higher skill levels within the 23 rule, other than the temptation to sandbag. I think most have stated there needs to be a 23 rule. You can raise the 23, or lower it, it would be the same results, problems. lyrad (Daryl) posted something that made alot of sense....something to help level the field a little better. It may not be perfect, But its a great suggestion that can be elaborated on and tweaked. I think the topic will always be discussed...as it should, keeps people thinking outside the box...trying to find a better way..Nothing wrong with that. read his post, expand on it...It takes thinking people like yourself to make change happen.
When your green you grow, when your ripe you rot. |
| Torsten |
Posted - 06/10/2010 : 6:44:37 PM
150 odd years ago, the inventors of baseball decided to make the bases 90 feet apart. This was a great decision because if they were 91 feet apart, everyone would be out and if they were 89 feet apart, everyone would be safe. The imperfection here is that not everyone runs at the same speed, but it's the best they could do.
There is no way to effectively argue that we should move the bases, or in this case, the 23 rule. Every team eventually runs into numbers problems as players improve. All I keep reading are the same suggestions with the same transparent ineffectiveness. There is no way to change a rule that would allow a dominant combination of skill levels and keep the matches fair.
Not that I'm in favor of restricting free speech, but can we make a rule that prohibits bitching about the 23 rule on this site?
I think the worst time to have a heart attack would be during a game of charades... or during a game of fake heart attack. |
| movistar |
Posted - 06/10/2010 : 4:33:12 PM
not sure if there is some confusion.. I never wanted to change the 23 rule in 8 ball...it works... it is the nine ball where there is a problem because of the 8 and 9 skill levels... it doesn't work for 9 ball... but, since the league really doesn't want to change the 23 rule in nine ball.... I suggested that we re evaluate everyones skill level in nine ball and drop the 8 and 9 and go from 1 to 7 like in 8 ball....now it works... not sure what people are NOT seeing.
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| Phil |
Posted - 06/10/2010 : 3:39:56 PM
I agree that you would end up in the same situation, but not because everybody's skill levels went up. It would be because captains put different players on their teams. Who needs a 2 when you can afford to carry another 4?
A while back there was another league with a limit of 25, and individual players were a bit lower than they are in APA. How many APA 2's and 3's did you see in that league? Was there any sandbagging?
Phil
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| SFVMark |
Posted - 06/10/2010 : 3:09:54 PM
Well done Keith. I love the reference.
Wanna come over to MySpace and Twitter my Yahoo till I Google all over your Facebook?
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| rhaydt |
Posted - 06/10/2010 : 12:08:08 PM
I am an engineer, I know math and statistics. And I know what happens when you use statistics to characterize any system. You get an average, a mean, and standard deviations. And you can lay this out on any type of scale you wish. For 8-ball the scale is from 2 to 7. Take the skill levels of all of the players in the South Coast League, plot them and you should see a nice bell curve. Since it is a closed scale the ends get chopped a bit. You do not need to know the details on how the skill level is actually calculated. I am only speaking in general terms and using only the information that is in the public domain.
How the innings, games won and lost, matchups, defences, etc. get compiled together to form the skill level is something else and does not need to be part of this subject. And I have no idea how it works and do not really care, except that if this algorithm did get out it would allow players to manipulate their skill level. So I doubt very much that any of the league operators would know how the system works except for those few that might work with the main office on this subject.
My point about the 23 rule is that it cannot be arbitrary. It must be part of the system. You cannot change 23 without changing the system. Changing to 25 would change the system, so you would be right back with the original issue.
Richard
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| Keith |
Posted - 06/10/2010 : 03:11:01 AM
Phil you didn't get the memo? Well you see Richard has been promoted and you might find yourself reporting to him now. Not that we don't appreciate what you do around here but um ya. Oh and um ya I'm going to need you to work on Saturday um ya.
Forget the TPS reports just don't forget your meeting with the Bobs...lol
Insert inspirational sentence here. |
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