| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| birdnpattie |
Posted - 10/07/2009 : 11:01:50 PM
I was playing Manuel Herra tonight in 8-ball. I shot at one of my balls that was about 1/2 inch from the Q-ball. I used top english with a little follow-thru so the Q-ball would roll forward after the strike. I only made momentary contact with the Q-ball, dropping the back of my stick as to not "push" the Q-ball. Manuel told me that "he wouldn't call it", but that it was a foul. I disagreed with him, but he began to argue and insist (for about 5 minutes). I went ahead and gave him 'ball-in-hand" so we could get back to playing the game, but he continued with the harassment (for another 5 minutes).
I play in this League for the "fun" of it, and don't really care about standings, or going to Vegas even. I went ahead and "let" him have the last two games he needed to win the match, in the hopes it would "calm" him, but it was not to be, he just wouldn't let it go. He still insists that when the Q-ball is "close to the object ball, the "rules" state that I can only use "bottom" english.
Whenever anyone "challenges" any of my shots, I ALWAYS give them the benefit of the doubt (even if I disagree). Like I said, I just play for the fun of it, and not for the competition per say. If Manuel would have said that I had "pushed" the Q-ball, I still would have given him "ball-in-hand" (like I did anyway), even if I knew I had not. He still insisted that I used "illegal" english, which is a rule I have never heard of in my life.
So my question is:
Is there really a rule against using "top" english when shooting a ball deemed "too close" to the Q-ball? (Remember, not a "push" shot, which I know is illegal.)
P.S.
Irregardless of whether this is a "rule" or not, I will no longer play when our team plays against Manuel Herra's team because of his disruptive attitude. |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| No Doubt |
Posted - 10/24/2009 : 2:00:52 PM
If you are playing in the APA for the money you can make. Then you need to fire your financial adviser. I understand trying to win but playing in a bar league to win money is worse than the argument that took place on this thread. |
| stevelobdell |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 2:39:02 PM
Just my opinion from a completely impartial bystander however
There are always 3 sides to every story. Your Side, My Side and The Truth.
Also, this is my 2nd season in the League and I have heard more than once from folks who have the attitude of "I'm only playing for fun. I don't care about anything but fun, fun, fun. If you want to call fouls on me, whatever, I don't care, I'm playing for fun, yadda, yadda, yadda"
Well as a League Player, I'm here to not only have fun, but to win some $$. Make the Playoffs. Make the Regionals. Make Las Vegas.
If I wanted to do nothing but have fun, I wouldn't be in a league paying money every week and staying out till Midnight. I would go to my local bar or play with friends at their house.
To me a League is about more than Fun. Just my $.02 |
| Phil |
Posted - 10/14/2009 : 08:59:36 AM
Ok folks, that's enough. You both had your say, now you need to drop it here. If you feel you still have issues to work out, get together and talk about it over a beer or something. You've both been around long enough to know that this kind of stuff is best handled on the spot between the two parties. Going beyond that is just making a mountain out of a mole hill.
If you have a league-related issue with a specific APA member, work it out directly with them or bring it to us privately. Posting it here (and including names) amounts to finger-pointing and name-calling, and will do nothing to resolve the real issue. Look what has happened here, a teeny-tiny issue has escalated to the point that I've had to edit posts to remove the personal insults.
I trust that both parties are mature enough to take this discussion offline or drop it altogether.
Phil
|
| No Doubt |
Posted - 10/13/2009 : 8:21:42 PM
This little feud is stupid and should be stopped in its tracks.
<Other stuff deleted - PAB>
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| birdnpattie |
Posted - 10/13/2009 : 6:05:48 PM
To start, I would like to thank those who contributed to giving me a better understanding of the rules, especially Taz.
Manuel, there is nothing for me to apologize to you about, except maybe for misspelling your name.
The shot: I "thought" the Q-ball had rolled a bit over a foot to the rail, and rolled out another couple of feet, with the object-ball traveling to yet another rail (almost double the distance the Q-ball traveled. But I concede that I "could" be mistaken, and that you may very well be right. You told me "you would not call" the foul, but you would not shut-up and shoot. I conceded THEN that you were right (a number of times), and finally "gave you" ball-in-hand" (in the hopes you would shut-up and shoot). But that was not the case, as you continued to "inform me of my foul", for quite some time after I had given you the ball-in-hand. I was not angry or annoyed at the time I gave you ball-in-hand, I was just impatient, I just wanted you to "shut-up and shoot". I got a bit aggravated that you would just "not let it go" for a while after I gave you the ball-in-hand. I never got angry, but I must say I was displeased with your attitude. Nice, was informing me the first time, the subsequent times were not so nice.
<Personal insult deleted - PAB>
If a questionable shot comes up, ask the opposing player to stop until a 3rd-party can observer the shot.
I will always concede if a foul is called against me . . . ALWAYS!
<Personal insults deleted - PAB>
and Moose Dragon, I was just being honest about why I do my very best to avoid situations with possibilities of escalation.
I will always try to avoid an argument of any kind, I will always concede when a foul is called on me.
Its only a game, and I play it for "fun" of it. |
| iampato |
Posted - 10/12/2009 : 8:10:04 PM
I am not taking sides... What stopped either of the two players or Captians from getting a third party as soon as the cue ball stopped rolling?
that is a retorical question Keith.
One lesson that should be learned that I haven't heard much mention is to get the third party ASAMFP!! I have called someone to watch one of my shots about once every other match. There are certin teams I will get someone to watch a shot if the cue ball is within 6 inches of the object ball. I will let the player argue with the third party not me. I know Taz will take the word of the third party EVERY day of the week and Twice on Sunday.
While shooting I feel it is equally important to call fouls on myself, Every time I know I foul!! I must be right, there are Public Service Announcements on TV telling kids to do it.
"Life is pool. Crack 'em hard early, Plan, Excute, Adapt. Over and Over again."
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Taz[/i]
[br]1. The is NO rule that exists concerning the use (or not) of any type of English on any type of shot.
2. Push shots can only happen when the object ball and the cue ball are touching (frozen). Push shots are NOT called in APA league.
3. Double hit occurs when there is some small space between the object ball and the cue ball (remember, if they are touching, a double hit cannot occur - that's called a push shot). They can be extremely difficult to see and often times you will hear the double hit rather than see it with the naked eye. Also, often times it is easier to determine a double-hit simply by observing the aftermath (more often than not, the cue ball will outraces the object ball).
3a. A double-hit foul can ONLY be called if done so by a third party who was asked to watch the hit. If no third party was asked to watch a hit and the shooter believes he made a good shot, the call goes to the shooters.
3b. Using draw will NOT always prevent a double-hit from occurring.
4. MOST IMPORTANT - Letting players have a game or match is an absolute NO-NO. You are affecting both players' skill levels. If the situation becomes so uncomfortable that you do not wish to continue the match, let your captain know you are done and forfeit the rest of the match.
All team captains should have a clear understanding of this by now...if one of your players becomes unruly and is causing a "bad night" for anyone, be it teammate or opposing team, send them home. If that player is in the middle of a match when the situation arises, send him/her home anyway. The rest of your teammates and league members will respect you the more for doing the right thing.
"I'm only unhappy with the woman I'm with, for a short time." Bernardo Perez 2006 |
| Moose Dragon |
Posted - 10/11/2009 : 10:21:22 PM
Is it me or does it seem as if Manuel and Aimee got together on their story. It is not that I don't believe it I just think the two posts were a combined effort, especially the "long time player" statement over and over. I also don't think I would tell people in a public forum that when I get mad I am prone to violence. |
| Keith |
Posted - 10/11/2009 : 03:29:21 AM
I figured that it was something like this and have been in a couple of situations like this myself. The worst one made it to this site and has been a locked subject for a long time. The best thing to do is to learn from this and move on. If I can be friends with the person I was in this situation with then you can get along with each other. If you want to look up the post it is Three ways to win and was posted in 2006.
From my experience posting complaints soon after tends to make things worse. With that said I will probably be posting something a year or two from now in reference to something that happened last season. |
| Jeff Burkhammer |
Posted - 10/10/2009 : 11:57:57 PM
Wow...what is that on my shoes? stepped in something.....lol...Me? hell, I wanna win win win...or I am not having fun!! lol. Peace!
When your green you grow, when your ripe you rot. |
| lwc9balla |
Posted - 10/10/2009 : 10:28:36 PM
In reply to this topic on Wednesday, I am the captain of Roll with it. I am also the current division rep for this area. I was there while this game had taken place. I was watching the match and had just seen the shot that Bird Eastham had made on the two ball and the expression he let out when his cue ball landed right up on his three ball. He paused looking at his balls, cause like he said, the balls were so close that you would have had to place some type of english or ANGLE to the shot. If the shot was such a no brainer, he would not have taken so much time to look at other ways to hit the three ball in question. I saw that manuel was standing in back of Bird to watch the shot. When the shot occured, I was surprised to see the three ball and cue ball take off in the same direction up the table and back down the nine foot table. As soon as that happened I heard manuel say to bird, "just so you know I am not calling a foul but it was." As soon as manuel said that, Bird came back with it wasn't a foul, it was momentary contact. manuel said again, well, just so you know I am not calling a foul, but how is it that the cue ball being that close to the three ball can travel in the same direction at a faster speed up the table and back. Once manuel asked him that question, Bird continually said it was momentary contact and it wasn't a foul. AGAIN, NO ONE WAS ASKING FOR BALL IN HAND. Me and my players are very aware that a third party is to be present if there is a shot in question. We are very aware that if there is no third party then the shot is to the player. But in this case, manuel was not asking for BALL IN HAND. Even his captain came to the table and told manuel, "I understand your point." But with that stated, he never told his own player anything. When Bird had given the cue ball to manuel, he gave it to him and told him over and over again provoking him and keeping him from shooting that he was a whinner. Once the match was over, I was finishing up the numbers on the score sheet and I then saw manuel and bird exchanging words still. Bird did not do as he said, instead of leaving as fast as he thinks, he ended up exchanging words with manuel when he won. manuel turned around and tried to shake his hand and leave it at that. But bird decided not too with calling names, "whinner" and "are you happy now." I jumped in and told the both of them that it was over and to just leave it. I never thought I would be in that kind of situation. I just felt that if the situation was so bad for Bird that he could have come to me and said look, I don't feel comfortable, or please talk to your player.. or he even could have had his captain come to me, or he could have said, "you know what, I want to call Phil or Taz." There are many things that bird could have done if he felt he was being mistreated or not in a friendly enviornment.
My take is, if you are going to seek for others opinion on the rules, then just resort to the RULE BOOK. No need to slander long time players.
I hope for Bird Eastham and future players that if a situation ever arises, to please turn to your Captain, Division Rep, or Operators. No need to slander someone that few or many players may or may not know.
I feel if there was a problem with the call on the shot or a question to the shot then there was no need to mention the person played. Unless to give that long time player a bad name in the league to others.
thank you for all listening. Aimee |
| lwc9balla |
Posted - 10/10/2009 : 9:35:18 PM
 ok so, this is for those of you who seemed to think I don't know what I am talking about. The shot was, cue ball on the bottom rail at the bottom of the table.. the three ball was about a quarter inch or half inch apart maybe even less, i am giving him the benefit of the doubt. I was standing behind the shot waiting to see what he was going to do and he got down and shot it. so, he said the ball only traveled an object ball or two in length forward. I don't know what shot he was watching but the three ball and the CUE BALL ran all the way up the nine foot table and back down half ways, so i stopped and told him i am not calling a "foul" were the first words out of my mouth. then i tried to explain to him the foul, and all i said to him was, "i'm trying to help you out so this doesn't happen in the future and it doesn't get called on you later," i guess for trying to be nice and explain a bad shot, then he got mad and gave me the cue ball. so, i told him he did not have to get mad, i told him i was not calling a foul cause there was no third party to call the hit. I was only trying to inform him of the shot. so, he picked up the cue ball and hands it to me and i again told him that i was not calling a foul. so, then i got down and shot and ended up winning cause he was dumping the game. after the match, he said i kept ranting and raving, what do you expect when you make the eight ball and then turn to him, and he says,"there are you happy now?" with a bad attitude. and then proceeds to call me a whinner. when all i did was try to explain to him what he did wrong. from what i understand, if you hit a ball that is half inch a way and it follows at the same speed as the object ball across a nine foot table and half ways back down i don't think that there is anyone who can stroke a ball like that, without committing a foul. I would also like to say, not once did i tell him about rules in the book or out of the book. and further more, i don't appreciate all the slandering this man has done to my name. if he is going to slander Manuel Herrera get it right. HERRERA. thats right H E R R E R A ! sorry for those of you who had to read a message on the rules in the book. I am sure that if this player had read the book and rules inside that he would have known exactly what I was referring too and this incident would not have taken place. Taz sums it up in items 3 and 4 on her comment. and the name calling, I think he should have just kept his comments to himself if he is going to be slandering ME! I never called him an inappropriate name like he is doing to me. for, someone who is looking for sypathy on this site, it is no way to slander another to make yourself feel like a victim and to also feel better about what you did. get your story straight before you post it on the message board. thank you, and sorry. Manny Herrera 00081. and he thinks i don't know what i am talking about. PPPPPPPPPSSSSSSSSSSSS. thank you. |
| birdnpattie |
Posted - 10/10/2009 : 2:35:42 PM
Thank You TAZ, I did not think there was a rule on what kind of english I can use, and when I can use it.
I do not "think" I pushed the shot, nor do I "believe" that I double-tapped it, but I could be mistaken.
Because I realize "my" potential to be wrong, I never contest a foul on my part.
I leave that to those observing the event from a different angle (and frame of mind).
By the way:
My Q-ball rolled forward after contact with the object ball, but at an ever decreasing rate.
(Rolling 1/3 or 1/4 the distance of the object ball, but it did roll forward "like I wanted it to".)
I apologize for "throwing" the following games.
For some silly reason, at the time, I thought it more "sportsman-like" to throw the match as opposed to forfeiting it.
I see your point, and concede that it was not a very good decision on my part. My bad!
I couldn't get him to stop explaining "my illegal shot", even after I awarded him ball-in-hand.
I don't see how anyone could have "gotten him to leave", when nobody could get him to shut-up and shoot.
So I did what I felt was the next best thing, leave as soon a possible myself.
(Since the "explanation" of my illegal-shot continued until I left, by then I was not a happy pool-player.)
P.S. (Jeff)
Sticking around to "Dole out" revenge, is NOT why I play pool.
I play for the "fun" of it, and if it isn't "fun", I don't want to play.
Also, sticking around while getting agitated does not work for me.
I am very lucky because I do not anger very easily,
but unfortunately when angered, I am prone to violence. |
| Jeff Burkhammer |
Posted - 10/09/2009 : 09:56:29 AM
Besides , it feels much better handing a snivling opponent a loss...MUCH better. Take my word for it. LOL.
When your green you grow, when your ripe you rot. |
| bikercowboy |
Posted - 10/09/2009 : 07:14:59 AM
Bravo Taz An excellent response. No wonder we enjoy this league so much
Isn't the object to make the object ball? But yes you are right the leave would be awesome if it was your shot. |
| BigRigTom |
Posted - 10/08/2009 : 8:49:38 PM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Taz[/i]
[br]1. The is NO rule that exists concerning the use (or not) of any type of English on any type of shot.
2. Push shots can only happen when the object ball and the cue ball are touching (frozen). Push shots are NOT called in APA league.
3. Double hit occurs when there is some small space between the object ball and the cue ball (remember, if they are touching, a double hit cannot occur - that's called a push shot). They can be extremely difficult to see and often times you will hear the double hit rather than see it with the naked eye. Also, often times it is easier to determine a double-hit simply by observing the aftermath (more often than not, the cue ball will outraces the object ball).
3a. A double-hit foul can ONLY be called if done so by a third party who was asked to watch the hit. If no third party was asked to watch a hit and the shooter believes he made a good shot, the call goes to the shooters.
3b. Using draw will NOT always prevent a double-hit from occurring.
4. MOST IMPORTANT - Letting players have a game or match is an absolute NO-NO. You are affecting both players' skill levels. If the situation becomes so uncomfortable that you do not wish to continue the match, let your captain know you are done and forfeit the rest of the match.
All team captains should have a clear understanding of this by now...if one of your players becomes unruly and is causing a "bad night" for anyone, be it teammate or opposing team, send them home. If that player is in the middle of a match when the situation arises, send him/her home anyway. The rest of your teammates and league members will respect you the more for doing the right thing.
Tap, Tap, Tap.
Well said Taz, as always your post is well thought out, articulate and precise!
BigRigTom
http://hardingersystems.com/BAT-Forum to discuss Billiards and Trucking or anything that interest you! |
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