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birdnpattie
USA
4 Posts |
 Posted - 10/07/2009 : 11:01:50 PM
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I was playing Manuel Herra tonight in 8-ball. I shot at one of my balls that was about 1/2 inch from the Q-ball. I used top english with a little follow-thru so the Q-ball would roll forward after the strike. I only made momentary contact with the Q-ball, dropping the back of my stick as to not "push" the Q-ball. Manuel told me that "he wouldn't call it", but that it was a foul. I disagreed with him, but he began to argue and insist (for about 5 minutes). I went ahead and gave him 'ball-in-hand" so we could get back to playing the game, but he continued with the harassment (for another 5 minutes).
I play in this League for the "fun" of it, and don't really care about standings, or going to Vegas even. I went ahead and "let" him have the last two games he needed to win the match, in the hopes it would "calm" him, but it was not to be, he just wouldn't let it go. He still insists that when the Q-ball is "close to the object ball, the "rules" state that I can only use "bottom" english.
Whenever anyone "challenges" any of my shots, I ALWAYS give them the benefit of the doubt (even if I disagree). Like I said, I just play for the fun of it, and not for the competition per say. If Manuel would have said that I had "pushed" the Q-ball, I still would have given him "ball-in-hand" (like I did anyway), even if I knew I had not. He still insisted that I used "illegal" english, which is a rule I have never heard of in my life.
So my question is:
Is there really a rule against using "top" english when shooting a ball deemed "too close" to the Q-ball? (Remember, not a "push" shot, which I know is illegal.)
P.S.
Irregardless of whether this is a "rule" or not, I will no longer play when our team plays against Manuel Herra's team because of his disruptive attitude. |
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Keith
USA
242 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2009 : 12:05:03 AM
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It sounds like he was saying that you double hit. The big reason I see for using draw is that people won't call it a bad hit. The funny thing is that you can double hit and still get draw on the cue ball. To avoid this in the future just get a third party to watch the shot.
P.S. The word you are looking for is regardless. Irregardless is not a word. |
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Moose Dragon
USA
128 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2009 : 10:39:38 AM
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| I don't have a rule book in front of me, but I believe the rule is that when the cue ball is close to the object ball and you are shooting directly at the object ball you have to elevate the back of the cue in order to keep from double hitting the cue ball. It is not necessarily low english it is just an elevated stroke. Even if he thought you did double hit he can not call it if he did not have someone watch it. I do not know if Manuel is the captain or not but only the captain and shooter can call fouls. Everyone else should stay on the sidelines. |
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josepha
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2009 : 11:38:34 AM
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I believe the Team Manual states: "...Only the player or the coach may officially call a foul, although anyone may suggest to the player or the coach that a foul should be called...." and "...Potential bad hit situations are usually fairly obvious and protests and disputes over these close situations can almost always be avoided if someone is asked to watch the shot. If the outside party cannot determine which ball was struck first, the call goes to the shooter. Teams involved in repeatedly calling bad hits without outside party verification may be subject to penalty points for disruptive unsportsmanlike behavior..."
Bottom Line: If the opposing team was concerned they should have had a 3rd party watch the shot; if they didn't it is up to the shooting player and his/her coach.
AMJ |
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birdnpattie
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2009 : 1:45:19 PM
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I know about the "double-tap" rule, and that didn't happen, nor was it what he complained about. He did not even claim that I had "pushed" the Q-ball. He told me that when balls are deemed "too close" together, top-english to make the ball roll forwards after contact with the object ball, "is against the rules".
My stick was low, nearly parallel with the table. I struck the Q-ball with top-english, dropping the back of the stick during follow-thru as well as raised my bridge (so as not to "push" the Q-ball). The contact was momentary.
I will usually avoid any arguments as much as possible. I NEVER dispute a foul called on me, even if I believe that they were wrong. I feel that if I lose a match because of one bad call, I was not playing my game "up-to-snuff" anyways. So this is not an issue about a foul being called. (I gave him ball-in-hand even though he said he was not going to "call it".) I even threw the last two games of the match to get away from his whining (which continued until I was leaving).
For my own information, I just want to know if using top-english is against the rules if a player deems the Q-ball is "too close" to the object ball? It is just that I have never heard of such a rule. (Remember; no push, no double-tap, just top-english.)
On the last point:
I am married, I don't need to come to pool to get a lecture. My team has a Captain, so I don't need "advice" from opposing players during a match. I conceded the point and gave him ball-in-hand, but I could not get him to shut-up and shoot. As aggravating as that may be (to me), I realize that there is not much I can do (but wait until the "rant" is over). I believe it is on me to take the initiative to avoid contact with such people, which is why I "choose" to stay at home when our team plays against his team in the future.
P.S.
Pardon me for my misspellings and/or incorrect nomenclature, I am not what you would call "the sharpest knife in the drawer". |
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BigRigTom
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2009 : 2:22:45 PM
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The concise answer to your question is NO. There is NO rule about what kind of english or spin you may or may not apply to the cue ball.
As for all that other stuff, it is just smoke and mirrors.
A cue ball that is close to an object ball makes a double hit foul easy and even likely if not hit properly, so if you opponent is concerned about the possibility of a double hit he should request a third and objective person to watch the hit and make the call. If he did not do that he has NO case.
The shooter should politely and patiently wait for the third eye person to get into an exceptible position so they can see and call the hit accurately.
If the incident upset me the way it seems to have upset you, I would write up that person for unsportsmanship conduct and I might also avoid playing him in the future too as you mentioned.
Afterall, no one needs that kind of crap during a match when all they really want to do is play pool and have a good time.
BigRigTom
http://hardingersystems.com/BAT-Forum to discuss Billiards and Trucking or anything that interest you! |
Edited by - BigRigTom on 10/08/2009 2:25:33 PM |
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Moose Dragon
USA
128 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2009 : 3:31:58 PM
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| If you did not double hit the cue ball then there is no arguement(i don't know what you mean by push). No one can tell you what kind of english you can or can not put on the cue ball. He had no business arguing and going on like you said. On the other hand you had no business throwing the last two games. You did yourself and your team a disservice. I do not care what the situation is you never throw a game. If it was that bad you should have called the league office and let them handle it. |
Edited by - Moose Dragon on 10/08/2009 3:33:03 PM |
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Taz
USA
555 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2009 : 6:15:59 PM
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1. The is NO rule that exists concerning the use (or not) of any type of English on any type of shot.
2. Push shots can only happen when the object ball and the cue ball are touching (frozen). Push shots are NOT called in APA league.
3. Double hit occurs when there is some small space between the object ball and the cue ball (remember, if they are touching, a double hit cannot occur - that's called a push shot). They can be extremely difficult to see and often times you will hear the double hit rather than see it with the naked eye. Also, often times it is easier to determine a double-hit simply by observing the aftermath (more often than not, the cue ball will outraces the object ball).
3a. A double-hit foul can ONLY be called if done so by a third party who was asked to watch the hit. If no third party was asked to watch a hit and the shooter believes he made a good shot, the call goes to the shooters.
3b. Using draw will NOT always prevent a double-hit from occurring.
4. MOST IMPORTANT - Letting players have a game or match is an absolute NO-NO. You are affecting both players' skill levels. If the situation becomes so uncomfortable that you do not wish to continue the match, let your captain know you are done and forfeit the rest of the match.
All team captains should have a clear understanding of this by now...if one of your players becomes unruly and is causing a "bad night" for anyone, be it teammate or opposing team, send them home. If that player is in the middle of a match when the situation arises, send him/her home anyway. The rest of your teammates and league members will respect you the more for doing the right thing.
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Edited by - Taz on 10/08/2009 6:17:46 PM |
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BigRigTom
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2009 : 8:49:38 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Taz[/i]
[br]1. The is NO rule that exists concerning the use (or not) of any type of English on any type of shot.
2. Push shots can only happen when the object ball and the cue ball are touching (frozen). Push shots are NOT called in APA league.
3. Double hit occurs when there is some small space between the object ball and the cue ball (remember, if they are touching, a double hit cannot occur - that's called a push shot). They can be extremely difficult to see and often times you will hear the double hit rather than see it with the naked eye. Also, often times it is easier to determine a double-hit simply by observing the aftermath (more often than not, the cue ball will outraces the object ball).
3a. A double-hit foul can ONLY be called if done so by a third party who was asked to watch the hit. If no third party was asked to watch a hit and the shooter believes he made a good shot, the call goes to the shooters.
3b. Using draw will NOT always prevent a double-hit from occurring.
4. MOST IMPORTANT - Letting players have a game or match is an absolute NO-NO. You are affecting both players' skill levels. If the situation becomes so uncomfortable that you do not wish to continue the match, let your captain know you are done and forfeit the rest of the match.
All team captains should have a clear understanding of this by now...if one of your players becomes unruly and is causing a "bad night" for anyone, be it teammate or opposing team, send them home. If that player is in the middle of a match when the situation arises, send him/her home anyway. The rest of your teammates and league members will respect you the more for doing the right thing.
Tap, Tap, Tap.
Well said Taz, as always your post is well thought out, articulate and precise!
BigRigTom
http://hardingersystems.com/BAT-Forum to discuss Billiards and Trucking or anything that interest you! |
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bikercowboy
105 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2009 : 07:14:59 AM
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Bravo Taz An excellent response. No wonder we enjoy this league so much
Isn't the object to make the object ball? But yes you are right the leave would be awesome if it was your shot. |
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Jeff Burkhammer
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2009 : 09:56:29 AM
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Besides , it feels much better handing a snivling opponent a loss...MUCH better. Take my word for it. LOL.
When your green you grow, when your ripe you rot. |
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birdnpattie
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2009 : 2:35:42 PM
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Thank You TAZ, I did not think there was a rule on what kind of english I can use, and when I can use it.
I do not "think" I pushed the shot, nor do I "believe" that I double-tapped it, but I could be mistaken.
Because I realize "my" potential to be wrong, I never contest a foul on my part.
I leave that to those observing the event from a different angle (and frame of mind).
By the way:
My Q-ball rolled forward after contact with the object ball, but at an ever decreasing rate.
(Rolling 1/3 or 1/4 the distance of the object ball, but it did roll forward "like I wanted it to".)
I apologize for "throwing" the following games.
For some silly reason, at the time, I thought it more "sportsman-like" to throw the match as opposed to forfeiting it.
I see your point, and concede that it was not a very good decision on my part. My bad!
I couldn't get him to stop explaining "my illegal shot", even after I awarded him ball-in-hand.
I don't see how anyone could have "gotten him to leave", when nobody could get him to shut-up and shoot.
So I did what I felt was the next best thing, leave as soon a possible myself.
(Since the "explanation" of my illegal-shot continued until I left, by then I was not a happy pool-player.)
P.S. (Jeff)
Sticking around to "Dole out" revenge, is NOT why I play pool.
I play for the "fun" of it, and if it isn't "fun", I don't want to play.
Also, sticking around while getting agitated does not work for me.
I am very lucky because I do not anger very easily,
but unfortunately when angered, I am prone to violence. |
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lwc9balla
3 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2009 : 9:35:18 PM
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 ok so, this is for those of you who seemed to think I don't know what I am talking about. The shot was, cue ball on the bottom rail at the bottom of the table.. the three ball was about a quarter inch or half inch apart maybe even less, i am giving him the benefit of the doubt. I was standing behind the shot waiting to see what he was going to do and he got down and shot it. so, he said the ball only traveled an object ball or two in length forward. I don't know what shot he was watching but the three ball and the CUE BALL ran all the way up the nine foot table and back down half ways, so i stopped and told him i am not calling a "foul" were the first words out of my mouth. then i tried to explain to him the foul, and all i said to him was, "i'm trying to help you out so this doesn't happen in the future and it doesn't get called on you later," i guess for trying to be nice and explain a bad shot, then he got mad and gave me the cue ball. so, i told him he did not have to get mad, i told him i was not calling a foul cause there was no third party to call the hit. I was only trying to inform him of the shot. so, he picked up the cue ball and hands it to me and i again told him that i was not calling a foul. so, then i got down and shot and ended up winning cause he was dumping the game. after the match, he said i kept ranting and raving, what do you expect when you make the eight ball and then turn to him, and he says,"there are you happy now?" with a bad attitude. and then proceeds to call me a whinner. when all i did was try to explain to him what he did wrong. from what i understand, if you hit a ball that is half inch a way and it follows at the same speed as the object ball across a nine foot table and half ways back down i don't think that there is anyone who can stroke a ball like that, without committing a foul. I would also like to say, not once did i tell him about rules in the book or out of the book. and further more, i don't appreciate all the slandering this man has done to my name. if he is going to slander Manuel Herrera get it right. HERRERA. thats right H E R R E R A ! sorry for those of you who had to read a message on the rules in the book. I am sure that if this player had read the book and rules inside that he would have known exactly what I was referring too and this incident would not have taken place. Taz sums it up in items 3 and 4 on her comment. and the name calling, I think he should have just kept his comments to himself if he is going to be slandering ME! I never called him an inappropriate name like he is doing to me. for, someone who is looking for sypathy on this site, it is no way to slander another to make yourself feel like a victim and to also feel better about what you did. get your story straight before you post it on the message board. thank you, and sorry. Manny Herrera 00081. and he thinks i don't know what i am talking about. PPPPPPPPPSSSSSSSSSSSS. thank you. |
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lwc9balla
3 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2009 : 10:28:36 PM
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In reply to this topic on Wednesday, I am the captain of Roll with it. I am also the current division rep for this area. I was there while this game had taken place. I was watching the match and had just seen the shot that Bird Eastham had made on the two ball and the expression he let out when his cue ball landed right up on his three ball. He paused looking at his balls, cause like he said, the balls were so close that you would have had to place some type of english or ANGLE to the shot. If the shot was such a no brainer, he would not have taken so much time to look at other ways to hit the three ball in question. I saw that manuel was standing in back of Bird to watch the shot. When the shot occured, I was surprised to see the three ball and cue ball take off in the same direction up the table and back down the nine foot table. As soon as that happened I heard manuel say to bird, "just so you know I am not calling a foul but it was." As soon as manuel said that, Bird came back with it wasn't a foul, it was momentary contact. manuel said again, well, just so you know I am not calling a foul, but how is it that the cue ball being that close to the three ball can travel in the same direction at a faster speed up the table and back. Once manuel asked him that question, Bird continually said it was momentary contact and it wasn't a foul. AGAIN, NO ONE WAS ASKING FOR BALL IN HAND. Me and my players are very aware that a third party is to be present if there is a shot in question. We are very aware that if there is no third party then the shot is to the player. But in this case, manuel was not asking for BALL IN HAND. Even his captain came to the table and told manuel, "I understand your point." But with that stated, he never told his own player anything. When Bird had given the cue ball to manuel, he gave it to him and told him over and over again provoking him and keeping him from shooting that he was a whinner. Once the match was over, I was finishing up the numbers on the score sheet and I then saw manuel and bird exchanging words still. Bird did not do as he said, instead of leaving as fast as he thinks, he ended up exchanging words with manuel when he won. manuel turned around and tried to shake his hand and leave it at that. But bird decided not too with calling names, "whinner" and "are you happy now." I jumped in and told the both of them that it was over and to just leave it. I never thought I would be in that kind of situation. I just felt that if the situation was so bad for Bird that he could have come to me and said look, I don't feel comfortable, or please talk to your player.. or he even could have had his captain come to me, or he could have said, "you know what, I want to call Phil or Taz." There are many things that bird could have done if he felt he was being mistreated or not in a friendly enviornment.
My take is, if you are going to seek for others opinion on the rules, then just resort to the RULE BOOK. No need to slander long time players.
I hope for Bird Eastham and future players that if a situation ever arises, to please turn to your Captain, Division Rep, or Operators. No need to slander someone that few or many players may or may not know.
I feel if there was a problem with the call on the shot or a question to the shot then there was no need to mention the person played. Unless to give that long time player a bad name in the league to others.
thank you for all listening. Aimee |
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Jeff Burkhammer
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2009 : 11:57:57 PM
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Wow...what is that on my shoes? stepped in something.....lol...Me? hell, I wanna win win win...or I am not having fun!! lol. Peace!
When your green you grow, when your ripe you rot. |
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Keith
USA
242 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2009 : 03:29:21 AM
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I figured that it was something like this and have been in a couple of situations like this myself. The worst one made it to this site and has been a locked subject for a long time. The best thing to do is to learn from this and move on. If I can be friends with the person I was in this situation with then you can get along with each other. If you want to look up the post it is Three ways to win and was posted in 2006.
From my experience posting complaints soon after tends to make things worse. With that said I will probably be posting something a year or two from now in reference to something that happened last season. |
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Illegal Top-English
