| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Torsten |
Posted - 02/24/2009 : 11:34:07 AM
One of my teammates brough this situation to my attention last night, and I want to clear this up once and for all. YOU DO NOT HAVE THE OPTION TO REPLACE AN OBJECT BALL THAT IS ACCIDENTALLY MOVED BEFORE THE SHOT OR AFTER THE SHOT. It is not a foul to accidentally move a ball other than the cue, however, THAT BALL MUST BE REPLACED.
There is no option. There is no, "Nah, we'll just leave it there." You don't get to choose if the ball gets put back or not. It's as clear as day in the rules. THE BALL MUST BE REPLACED.
This rant is in reference to a specific situation involving specific players. I want to be clear that the participants who were mistaken about the rule WERE NOT INTENTIONALLY TRYING TO CIRCUMVENT ANY RULES. They were simply not aware of this rule. They're both as honest as Abe Lincoln and I consider them my friends. This is not an attack on their character by any stretch.
It just bugs me that this rule, which has been updated to read as it is now for quite some time, is still not known to people. Perhaps we need to bring this up at the next captains' meeting. And people, BRING YOUR RULE BOOKS TO THE MATCHES WITH YOU!!! They're useful. Okay, now that my blood is officially boiling, Sporn. Out.
I think the worst time to have a heart attack would be during a game of charades... or during a game of fake heart attack. |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Keith |
Posted - 07/11/2009 : 6:03:13 PM
T you know that I am far from knowledgeable. I am competitive but far from knowledgeable. So get it right when you talk about me. And I thought you were my friend. You don't even know me.
My guess is about a minimum of 25 years since our government made a change for the better. Though I do know for a fact that they did in 1776.
There are no stupid questions except the one you just asked. |
| Torsten |
Posted - 07/11/2009 : 11:51:35 AM
When was the last time our government made a change for the better?
Okay, now that I've opened that can of worms... look, change should be made when stasis is what the problem is. The rules, as they are, are not a problem. In fact, they are more of a solution. Imagine this scenario. Player A talks his girlfriend into joining the team so they can spend time, have fun, and compete together. She has really never played before. Accidentally, her hair touches a ball during her first turn at the table. Movistar jumps up and yells, "That's a foul!!!" Ok, just kidding. I know Movistar wouldn't do that. But in this situation, Player A's girlfriend would likely feel, "What the eff? I thought this was supposed to be fun."
For rules to be fair, they have to apply equally to all players. For an APA to even exist, some allowances have to be made that don't punish lower ranked/inexperienced/new players too severely. After all, no new/inexperienced/lower ranked players, no APA. To have both of the aforementioned criteria, those rules must then also not punish high-ranked players too severely.
I'll admit it, at first I wasn't in love with the idea that you could accidentally clatter into a ball and still be able to just replace it and take your turn. But having been in the league for nearly 6 years, and personally watching players evolve and improve from barely being able to hit the white ball, much less avoid hitting other balls, to competitive and knowledgable players, these allowances must be made.
I think the worst time to have a heart attack would be during a game of charades... or during a game of fake heart attack. |
| movistar |
Posted - 07/10/2009 : 4:18:06 PM
nope.. NO THREAT !! just food for thought!
on the contrair... it is simple....
move a ball and it is a foul...
much simpler than trying to get people to understand the "double hit" rule. or
the "drive anyball to the rail" rule...
or marking the 8 ball with something that is "not usually found on a pool table" rule..or
"MANDATORY replacement of disturbed balls to original position" rule
... IF you can remember where they were...etc.
just like government... not all rules need to remain the same just because we have been using them...sometimes changes are for the better and we can only make changes if people start "thinking and talking"....have a great summer. |
| Phil |
Posted - 07/03/2009 : 11:43:55 PM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by movistar[/i]
[br]PHIL... this goes out to you ( and I know you will read it)
in an earlier post, YOU said that any balls moved during a shot that do NOT involve the cue ball are returned to their original position (IF anybody can remember where they were)...but, what happens if a shooter misses a shot and that ball makes contact with a ball that was accidently moved and ends up going in a pocket, or he accidently hits the missed ball with his cue and the ball ends up going in a pocket... does he get credit and keep shooting... APA... Any Pocket Anytime....I've seen it happen. what's the call?
This is a case where common sense should apply, and it should be easy for the two team captains to agree on a resolution. Remember, all we ask for is an honest effort.
If we are contacted to make a call in this situation, it would be this: spot the pocketed ball, return the moved ball to it's original position, and it's the opponent's turn. Don't even start with "what if the deflected ball would have gone in anyway?" We don't make calls based on what would have happened, only on what did happen.
quote:
if there is no answer to this question, I will reopen the possibility of making a SIMPLE rule that "any moved ball is a foul".
Is this a threat? You knew I would answer your question, there's no need to threaten such drastic measures! 
Seriously, we could play the "what if" game forever, but at some point it gets old. For example, what if the moved ball in the previous scenario was only moved a tenth of a millimeter? What if the moved ball is deflected by the object ball into the 8-Ball and the 8-Ball subsequently falls into a pocket? What if the deflected object ball splits in half as a result of the collision with the moved ball and only half of it goes into a pocket? These, and all the other millions of obscure scenarios can be resolved with the application of two things - common sense and honest effort.
Oh, and guess what? All of these scenarios, should they arise, have to be addressed whether the opponent gets ball in hand or not, so your SIMPLE rule doesn't really SIMPLIFY much.
Phil
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| Phil |
Posted - 07/03/2009 : 10:50:55 PM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Moose Dragon[/i]
[br]The way I understand it is if you accidently move a ball before or during a shot and the cue ball comes into contact with it or moves through the space previously occupied by the moved ball it is a ball in hand foul. You can not alter the roll of the cue ball.
I do not know if this includes other balls on the table or not, but I can not imagine you get to keep shooting if a ball is made as you stated. More than likely it is a dead ball and your opponents turn.
Kerry, are you just trying to stir the pot? The cue ball moving through the space previously occupied by an accidentally moved ball is not a foul, as mentioned earlier in this thread.
Phil
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| Moose Dragon |
Posted - 07/03/2009 : 3:49:25 PM
The way I understand it is if you accidently move a ball before or during a shot and the cue ball comes into contact with it or moves through the space previously occupied by the moved ball it is a ball in hand foul. You can not alter the roll of the cue ball.
I do not know if this includes other balls on the table or not, but I can not imagine you get to keep shooting if a ball is made as you stated. More than likely it is a dead ball and your opponents turn. |
| movistar |
Posted - 07/03/2009 : 3:10:06 PM
hey Keith...HAPPY BIRTHDAY !!!
my coments were directed to anyone who uses the "nice guy " syndrom to bypass the rules... not YOU in particular.... my best wishes go out to your friends who are in bad health.. I hope they get better
PHIL... this goes out to you ( and I know you will read it)
in an earlier post, YOU said that any balls moved during a shot that do NOT involve the cue ball are returned to their original position (IF anybody can remember where they were)...but, what happens if a shooter misses a shot and that ball makes contact with a ball that was accidently moved and ends up going in a pocket, or he accidently hits the missed ball with his cue and the ball ends up going in a pocket... does he get credit and keep shooting... APA... Any Pocket Anytime....I've seen it happen. what's the call?
if there is no answer to this question, I will reopen the possibility of making a SIMPLE rule that "any moved ball is a foul".
Thanks... have a happy 4 th
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| Keith |
Posted - 07/03/2009 : 2:23:54 PM
Out of all days you decide to scold me on my birthday. For your information the person who picked up the cue ball had a stroke and has trouble paying attention through a match. I'm sorry that he is my friend and that I remember going to the hospital to see my friend looking like he might die. You are right and I should be an a** and take advantage of his stroke. After all survival of the fittest. Maybe I should do the same thing with my friend who has Parkinsons about as advanced as Muhammad Ali. I know I should complain about the guy with M.S. taking to long because he has trouble getting around the table. I'm sorry that I would rather play with a honest cluts than a dishonest person.
The rules are there to settle disputes and not to exploit against those who have life kicking them around.
There are no stupid questions except the one you just asked. |
| movistar |
Posted - 07/03/2009 : 12:25:40 PM
Keith..if we are talking about "accidents" and trying to play "mister nice guy" and let the opponent have do overs..... why not give the poor slob another chance to make his ball if he "accidently" hit your ball first when shooting...I am sure he was NOT intentially shooting at YOUR ball!
rules are rules... why do we have them if we are not going to inforce them?
looks like we need one set of rules for beginner players that tells them that "we have rules," but we are not going to enforce them and another set of rules for players who want to learn the game RIGHT and play by the rules!
Thorsten.... leave your rule book at home... we're not going to inforce it anyway...lol
have a great day and shoot well life is short
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| Keith |
Posted - 06/30/2009 : 5:29:10 PM
Thank you Phil. If fouls are called for moving a ball then they are called for touching a ball. They are also called for being responsible for a ball moving even if you didn't touch it. Yes if you accidentally bump the table and a ball moves it would be a foul. If you think that I am kidding then watch a speed pool match or ask Sal if he has ever been called on a shirt foul. There is a reason he wears turtle neck shirts when he is on tour. The way the rules are written on this is a lot better than fouls on all balls. Hell there have been times when the other player has moved the cue ball and as long as they are honest and it was on accident I tell them to put it back and shoot. If they don't bring it up that they moved the cue ball then I ask them. They usually fess up after and that is when I take the ball in hand. I have even had my opponent pick it up not thinking about it. Their team got his attention and said that it was not ball in hand. He went to hand it to me and I told him to put it back and take his turn. |
| Phil |
Posted - 06/29/2009 : 11:52:05 PM
Who says it's not ok to move a ball by accident? It IS ok, and it SHOULD BE ok. It's not gonna bother me if my opponent accidentally bumps a ball. Let's put it back and keep going. If we don't get it back EXACTLY where it was, well BOO FREAKING HOO. Give me an honest effort, and I'm satisfied.
The key word here is HONEST. Moving a ball on purpose is dishonest, and putting a ball back in the wrong spot on purpose to gain an advantage is also dishonest. Dishonesty is a sportsmanship issue, write it up and we'll deal with it.
Most beginners are already intimidated when they step to the table. How do you think they would feel if they had to worry about opponents calling hair fouls, sleeve fouls, and (yes, this actually happened in another league) boob fouls on them?
This is a recreational league. The rules are strict enough to provide a structure for good competition, yet friendly enough that beginners and recreational players can have fun too. It's kind of a balancing act, and it's something we have to keep in mind when someone proposes a change to the rules. It's also something that the super-competitive players have to keep in mind, or they will find themselves frustrated time after time.
Phil
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| movistar |
Posted - 06/29/2009 : 8:32:39 PM
maybe it is time to STOP teaching beginner players (or seasoned) that it is OK to touch or move balls around because we will "just move them back" if we can remember where they were!
a better rule that is easier to UNDERSTAND and enforce is >>>> IF you move any ball accidently, on purpose, or otherwise , whether it be one ball or three balls..it is a foul and opponent gets ball in hand.
players would just have to learn to be careful..
This is an easier rule to understand than the one of "having to hit a rail " after contacting the object ball. Beginning players have this rule and understand it is a ball in hand foul.
the new rule would prevent any misunderstanding of what happens if you "move a ball". be careful or it is a foul.... with no argument!
some more "food for thought"
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| Keith |
Posted - 03/08/2009 : 02:09:35 AM
Our situation was easily resolved and all parties agreed. I was pissed though because I wanted to see if he could get out of the jam he was in.
Hey I was just told that we are supposed to make the balls in the pockets. That makes a big difference. |
| Torsten |
Posted - 03/07/2009 : 9:24:27 PM
No Keith, I was not referring to that. The situation I was referring to did not involve a foul. It simply involved a ball being accidentally moved, and then the question being whether or not to replace it. The person who was called to watch the shot (and the one who asked my opinion when I saw him) correctly ruled that the ball must be replaced, while one of the participants in the match argued that replacing the ball was optional.
I'm not aware of your situation with Ed, but if no third party was asked to observe, the shooter makes the call.
I think the worst time to have a heart attack would be during a game of charades... or during a game of fake heart attack. |
| Keith |
Posted - 03/06/2009 : 10:16:24 PM
I hope you aren't referring to me and ed. If this was the situation that was brought to your attention. You should know that ed hit the 4 into the cue ball and the cue moved quite a bit. One other thing you have to give Phil and maybe even Taz some credit for dealing with our calls. Even though we sometimes are not painting a clear picture.
Confucios say "Man who dip in other man's well often get crabs." |
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