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D-RACK
USA
321 Posts |
 Posted - 02/04/2010 : 11:29:38 AM
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1st
Lets see if this post stops a team from purposely dumping to lower the skill levels before Regionals. Last season a 9 ball team won 1st place with 12 teams in the DIVISION so correct me if i am wrong the are qualified for TEAM Regionals. This team (Upper SL)has since spent the first 4 weeks of 9 ball (Same roster except 1 person) and has a combined win total of 14 matches played (ALL SL 5) and 4 wins between them. Maybe their Captain wasn't present when TAZ explained that their eligibility can be pulled.
2nd
There is another issue that I wanted to air out.
The Current first place team in Camarillo is truly either the best team out there or under rated. I am all for having a good week in 9 ball but this team has AVG. 65 points every week since week 1. 20 wins 5 loses a 75% Win to loss Ratio and a few weeks took 70+ points. Our division is pretty close (257 1st) the rest is around 2nd 229 3rd 225 4th 221 5th 220 6th 206 7th 204 ect....
This teams host location tables are so bad that on avg. when you play you will accumulate 5-10 extra innings (Depending on SL) Per night. Maybe this is what is keeping there SL down. Now i am not saying I don't have a ACE or Two on my team and after this i am sure i will get a nice reply from the league office. But that is what a message board is for.
Don't get me wrong Everyone I have spoken about here i am friends with. Hell when you played as much as i have (3 Nights a week) in Small ass Camarillo Division you tend to know everyone. Tonight my team is playing the current sandbagging team so we will see. I am also attaching my name cause i have nothing to hide.
3rd
Being toyed with......(Sandbagging)
A few weeks ago I played a SL 6 in 8 Ball (I am a 6 as well) 5 to 5 race. I won the lag broke and didn't make a ball. My opponent proceeded to runt he table perfectly! (It was good shooting) He then broke and ran the next 2 (3-0) HIM.....
GM 4 he broke and didn't make a ball I played great pool and ran 4 or 5 balls then decided to play a good safety. Witch I was proud of. (at this point there is 1 inning with 1 defensive shot) he proceed to run the table and played a brilliant Defensive shot back. I went for a good hit (Witch I got) But the Cue charmed off and pocketed the 8 ball. (E8)
4-0 HIM
My opponent Knowing that the match was well in hand proceeded to purposely miss shots I receive several ball in hand 8-9 and he was even nice enough to scratch on the 8 a few times. 20+ in theses 3 games if i remember correctly.
4-3 score.
I broke thinking Maybe if i run out and break a 8 I would win and teach him a lesson for toying with me. No such luck in game 7 i didn't make a ball on the break and he suddenly (now being nervous) became a perfect pool player again and ran out a very difficult table.
Perfect Gentleman shook my hand even bought me a beer i think....
But come on smells funny.... I proceed to watch this player the following week...and wouldn't you know it he barely squeaked out another win after getting to the hill 4-0 (LOW Innings) against a good 5 who won 2 then lost hill hill when this player remember how to turn it on again.
4th
I was in a timeout with my Captain of our Wednesday Division playing a team that has some serious INTEGRITY ISSUES (My wife spoke of in a early post) About not telling your opponent if you fouled their job to watch the table. Even when asked.
This SL 5 proceed to wait till my player was on the 8 ball in mid stroke he proceed to antagonize her about who marked the pocket (Witch in a time out i marked it) and talked through every shot. Glad to say she lost but she did it with CLASS. The opponent was a perfect gentleman and told her not to worry that he (The gut on his team) was a asshole.
She went to talk to there Captain and asked if he could let him know that his childish game please be stopped but........to no avail he continued.
I proceed to calmly try to explain the rules that i am allowed to mark her pocket in a legal timeout (OBVIOUS shot) She just didn't know top or bottom to scratch. (SL3)
So there it is......
I am sure I haven't been the best pool player 24/7 and i know i have made my mistakes but i am learning from others and hope to better my self and the people around me.
No names of people or teams just AIRING OUT MY LAUNDRY.
Derrick Adrian
Camarillo
APA 02749
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josepha
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2010 : 12:04:50 PM
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We played that team last night in 8-Ball and their player 'fouled' and quietly sat down not saying anything because our player didn't see the foul. I spoke to their Captain and told him clearly it was unprofessional. In any case I, the scorekeeper at the time, blurted something out loudly so their player could call "ball in hand". Later in the evening another one of their players did the same. It is the responsibility of the shooting player to clearly state that they have fouled.
AMJ |
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2010 : 5:14:58 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by D-RACK[/i]
[br]1st
Lets see if this post stops a team from purposely dumping to lower the skill levels before Regionals. Last season a 9 ball team won 1st place with 12 teams in the DIVISION so correct me if i am wrong the are qualified for TEAM Regionals. This team (Upper SL)has since spent the first 4 weeks of 9 ball (Same roster except 1 person) and has a combined win total of 14 matches played (ALL SL 5) and 4 wins between them. Maybe their Captain wasn't present when TAZ explained that their eligibility can be pulled.
Ok, I'll correct you. This team won the playoffs in Summer Session and got a bye in the first round of the TOC, which qualified them for Regionals. They lost the first match they played.
This SAME TEAM, now qualified for Regionals, went on to finish in first place in the Fall. Hardly what you would expect from a team that you accuse of dumping to lower skill levels. Again, they lost the first match they played at the TOC.
Rest assured, however, that even if they have decided to try to manipulate the system, the system has the upper hand. Read page 85 of the Team Manual to find out why.
quote:
2nd
There is another issue that I wanted to air out.
The Current first place team in Camarillo is truly either the best team out there or under rated. I am all for having a good week in 9 ball but this team has AVG. 65 points every week since week 1. 20 wins 5 loses a 75% Win to loss Ratio and a few weeks took 70+ points. Our division is pretty close (257 1st) the rest is around 2nd 229 3rd 225 4th 221 5th 220 6th 206 7th 204 ect....
This teams host location tables are so bad that on avg. when you play you will accumulate 5-10 extra innings (Depending on SL) Per night. Maybe this is what is keeping there SL down. Now i am not saying I don't have a ACE or Two on my team and after this i am sure i will get a nice reply from the league office. But that is what a message board is for.
Don't get me wrong Everyone I have spoken about here i am friends with. Hell when you played as much as i have (3 Nights a week) in Small ass Camarillo Division you tend to know everyone. Tonight my team is playing the current sandbagging team so we will see. I am also attaching my name cause i have nothing to hide.
Give it some time. This is a team that qualified for the TOC last session and got very excited about it. It's quite possible that they've been riding that high for the first part of this session. Of course, one of their "big win" nights was against the team you just accused of dumping - which is it?
quote:
3rd
Being toyed with......(Sandbagging)
A few weeks ago I played a SL 6 in 8 Ball (I am a 6 as well) 5 to 5 race. I won the lag broke and didn't make a ball. My opponent proceeded to runt he table perfectly! (It was good shooting) He then broke and ran the next 2 (3-0) HIM.....
Had to pull the scoresheet for this one. I pulled the one kept by your team. The first two games went as you stated, but the third had three innings (not a break and run as you misremembered).
quote:
GM 4 he broke and didn't make a ball I played great pool and ran 4 or 5 balls then decided to play a good safety. Witch I was proud of. (at this point there is 1 inning with 1 defensive shot) he proceed to run the table and played a brilliant Defensive shot back. I went for a good hit (Witch I got) But the Cue charmed off and pocketed the 8 ball. (E8)
4-0 HIM
Hmmm, according to that description I expected to see two innings in game four. Your sheet shows five.
quote:
My opponent Knowing that the match was well in hand proceeded to purposely miss shots I receive several ball in hand 8-9 and he was even nice enough to scratch on the 8 a few times. 20+ in theses 3 games if i remember correctly.
You don't. Nine innings in those three games, and he didn't scratch on the 8 once.
quote:
4-3 score.
I broke thinking Maybe if i run out and break a 8 I would win and teach him a lesson for toying with me. No such luck in game 7 i didn't make a ball on the break and he suddenly (now being nervous) became a perfect pool player again and ran out a very difficult table.
So that would be a zero inning game, right? Wrong. Your scoresheet shows three innings, and shows that he won the game when you scratched on the 8.
quote:
Perfect Gentleman shook my hand even bought me a beer i think....
But come on smells funny.... I proceed to watch this player the following week...and wouldn't you know it he barely squeaked out another win after getting to the hill 4-0 (LOW Innings) against a good 5 who won 2 then lost hill hill when this player remember how to turn it on again.
Hmmmmm, I don't see 4-0 on the sheet for that match, either. I see 1-0, 1-1, 2-1, 3-1, 3-2, 4-2, 4-3, and 5-3. By the time he got his 4th win, there were 18 innings. But hey, "LOW" is relative, right? I also find it amazing that this guy could wait until he had missed five times in the final rack to "turn it on".
quote:
4th
I was in a timeout with my Captain of our Wednesday Division playing a team that has some serious INTEGRITY ISSUES (My wife spoke of in a early post) About not telling your opponent if you fouled their job to watch the table. Even when asked.
This SL 5 proceed to wait till my player was on the 8 ball in mid stroke he proceed to antagonize her about who marked the pocket (Witch in a time out i marked it) and talked through every shot. Glad to say she lost but she did it with CLASS. The opponent was a perfect gentleman and told her not to worry that he (The gut on his team) was a asshole.
She went to talk to there Captain and asked if he could let him know that his childish game please be stopped but........to no avail he continued.
I proceed to calmly try to explain the rules that i am allowed to mark her pocket in a legal timeout (OBVIOUS shot) She just didn't know top or bottom to scratch. (SL3)
So there it is......
I am sure I haven't been the best pool player 24/7 and i know i have made my mistakes but i am learning from others and hope to better my self and the people around me.
No names of people or teams just AIRING OUT MY LAUNDRY.
Derrick Adrian
Camarillo
APA 02749
While we would all like a perfect world where stuff like this doesn't happen, we live in a nonperfect world where some would do just about anything to gain an advantage. There is no requirement that a player call fouls on himself/herself, so if you're playing someone who has a reputation for stuff like this, just make a mental note of it and pay extra attention to protect yourself and your team.
Now Derrick, there is one more thing you are mistaken about in your post (not that I haven't already pointed out enough of them). This is NOT the place to "air your laundry" or accuse specific players and teams of cheating. Do that with the forms we provide in your team packet. That way, you bring your concerns to our attention, but you don't offend the people with whom you claim to be friends, and you don't come off looking silly when you get the facts wrong. This is the second time in about six weeks that you've done this. Two strikes, one more and I may have to ban you from posting.
Phil
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Taz
USA
555 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2010 : 7:49:19 PM
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I want to add my 2 cents....
In D-Rack's post under 1st...."9 ball team won 1st place with 12 teams in the division so correct me if i am wrong the are qualified for TEAM Regionals"
Consider yourself corrected (I don't think the response was clear enough on this, sorry Phil).... Winning 1st in the Division of twelve or more teams advances the team to Tournament of Champions (bypassing the division playoffs). It does NOT qualify a team for South Coast Championships (aka Team Regionals). |
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D-RACK
USA
321 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2010 : 09:47:32 AM
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Dont worry Phil I may have had a few errors on exact details but I think i got my point across.
Funny thing is you seem to pick out the errors and not discuss the nature of the topic. But its ok please remove the post then if you don't want me venting on the message board.
Funny even another player agreed with me right away and he is on a different team then mine.
Spoke to a few people who read this and agree but don't want to reply in fear of repercussion.
And as far as strike 3....lol don't worry i wont post again...
TKAE THIS DOWN PLEASE |
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Taz
USA
555 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2010 : 11:50:30 AM
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LOL.
You appear to have developed selective reading skills, as all your points were in fact addressed, one at a time.
The fact that others might agree with a one-sided post (now don't go taking offense, because all posts are made from one person's view point) is not surprising. I would find it much more interesting to hear what others think once they have both sides, one side being an individual's personal observations, while the other being FACTS.
As to "others don't want to reply in fear of repercussion" well that's simply laughable, after all, what repersussion did you suffer? Having Phil point out the inaccuracy of your posts? Please!
You want the topic taken down, feel free to delete it.
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D-RACK
USA
321 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2010 : 12:16:17 PM
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| The repercussion is being band from the boards as Phil said Strike two.... But no worries I will leave it up.... |
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D-RACK
USA
321 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2010 : 1:42:00 PM
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Phil- Just curios u put that my match was 1-1 I know he went up 2-0 cause he broke and ran the 2nd match so maybe you could recheck both score sheets...
and he won the 3rd game my records show 3-0 |
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2010 : 4:40:51 PM
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No, I didn't. His match the following week went 1-1, 2-1, 3-1, 3-2, 4-2, 4-3, 5-3. You stated 4-0 and LOW innings. You also stated he turned it on again in the final game, but the scoresheet shows six innings in that game. Pretty much a back and forth match, but you presented it as "he raced to the hill 4-0, then messed around until it was hill-hill, then turned it back on."
Here's the problem. You tried to get a point across, but it wasn't a point you could make without embellishing a little (ok, a lot). When you do that, you look like a guy with an axe to grind, twisting the story to suit your needs. You did the same thing with your story about the division finals last session, posting names and stats for every player on the winning team, along with comments about their skill levels being lower for most of the session (untrue). Had I looked a little closer, I would have also pointed out that they didn't finish one point ahead of you in the standings, it was thirty-one points. But "they finished one point ahead of us because they were under-ranked for most of the session so we had to play at their crappy bar on their crappy table" sounds a lot better than "we put ourselves in a hole by getting only 69 points the first two weeks and couldn't catch up, so we had to play at their place."
If you make an accusation in a public forum like this, you damn well better have the facts right to support the accusation. Otherwise, it amounts to slander. And yes, slander will get you banned from posting. You have even managed to twist this to mean "if we don't like what you post we will ban you." That's simply not the case.
Phil
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D-RACK
USA
321 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2010 : 4:50:08 PM
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OK so i was saying look at the game when i played him it was 3-0 I KNOW THAT for a fact. I would love to stop by and discuses this with u and look at the score sheet myself. Since we are not allowed to keep you own records i was going off memory....
I AM REFERRING TO Match-ups for week 3 of Spring Session on 01/20/2010
it was not 1-1 2-1 ....
It was 3-0 minimum I believe i am correct please check your records... You mis read what i was stating.
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Edited by - D-RACK on 02/05/2010 4:55:06 PM |
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2010 : 7:21:40 PM
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You're welcome to come by and discuss any time. I didn't mis-read anything, it's all right there in my first reply.
Phil
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Taz
USA
555 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2010 : 7:39:21 PM
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| D-rack, you are doing it again. In one post you state "my records show" and the next one you say "we are not allowed to keep records so I was going by memory"..... |
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Torsten
USA
401 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2010 : 1:02:16 PM
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I might be locking the barn door after the horse was stolen, but Derrick, consider the following.
If you feel your opponent is dogging, missing makeable shots intentionally but trying to hide it or something like that, have your scorekeeper mark a defense. At the very least, you can ask your opponent, "that a d?" In fairness, and I don't know your opponent so I can't take sides, but I've been asked before if I missed a shot intentionally that looked very makeable. Sometimes I've just missed an easy shot, other times I missed it intentionally because it was my second-to-last ball and my last one is tied up. Rather than try to force a breakout and open the table up for my opponent, I'd rather make them deal with the problem. This becomes awkward because I don't want to announce my strategy. I don't want my opponent to know what I've tried to strategize. The best I can come up with is to tell my scorekeeper I've played a defensive shot, and to have my scorekeeper let the other team's scorekeeper know that i had played a defense without making a neon sign out of it. That way, the score is accurate and maybe I've still managed to keep my strategy safe from my opponent.
Look, there's a point I'm trying to make here. I'm sure you guys have have seen some of Keith's posts. I'm not in love with everything he puts on this board, but I do agree with him that it gets offensive to be accused of cheating/sandbagging, especially if it's more than once. I can definitively say with 100% confidence that Keith is NOT a sandbagger. He's a bit on the cocky side, and occasionally rubs someone the wrong way, but he respects the integrity of the game. He learned a hard lesson about honest play very early in his APA career, and in the years since I've played against him no fewer than 15 times and he's never given anything less than his best to beat me, whether I win 5-0 or he does. Which brings me to your opponent. I don't know him. Could he be dishonest? I suppose. But it's not an accusation to make lightly.
Look at it this way. You're a heck of a shot, especially when you're on. I'm sure you've given some pretty damn good players a beating in your day, and I'm sure they've thought "how the hell is he only a 6?"
So now that I've been on my soapbox long enough to crack the wood, I'll leave with this pearl of... I was going to say wisdom, but those who know me know better. We'll go with brief moment of clarity. If you truly think something is amiss, you OWE it to this league to fill out the proper paperwork and submit it. If someone is playing unfairly, it doesn't just affect your match, your team, or your division. It affects all of us in the southcoast region. However, if there's any decent chance that there wasn't any skulduggery involved, let it stoke the flame to your motivation rather than frustration. Go out and put a whuppin on him next time. Break and run a couple yourself. Goodness knows you can do it.
Lastly, a certain birdie (her name rhymes with Shmerry) said we're all supposed to do lunch. Time and place?
I think the worst time to have a heart attack would be during a game of charades... or during a game of fake heart attack. |
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D-RACK
USA
321 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2010 : 2:20:11 PM
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| next week anytime or place!! |
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Keith
USA
242 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 6:08:17 PM
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T.... Yeah you are right. I sometimes post when things are a little heated. I also appreciate you trying to take my under your wing. I have run into your dilemma with the announcing of your defense and have come up with what I consider a good solution. I use it all the time or at least when I run into this situation. I play the shot the way I intend to shoot it and don't say anything during the rack. Then when the rack is over I speak with both scorekeepers and notify them that I played a D that I did not want to be known at the time. They mark the D and the my strategy is not obvious when the game is being played. I believe I did that in a match against you a couple times. Then again we just duke it out and sometimes forget about things like a defense.
I think that when people see a problem in the system they jump to the worst conclusion and do it quickly. If someone is working on their game they tend to do worse before they get better. This does not help the rating system keep up at all. I can honestly say that I have done four skill evaluations on people. I have tried to be considerate when I write them and have only suggested that someone be moved up twice. The other two have been to suggest that someone be moved down a skill level. I try not to throw around the term sandbagger very often and use under rated in its place. I think the rating system has many holes in it and that if someone is trying to win then it is not their fault. When someone comes out with a better system. I hope the apa adopts it. One of my problems is that my team is in last place and has been for three seasons. I have had one person moved down and he is new to the apa. He has only played one match and nobody else has been moved down. One of my fours has not won a match since being moved up to a four about a year ago. He has only played about 10 to 14 matches and feels like the league is picking on him. My five has won less than 30 percent of his matches in the last couple seasons and was a new five when this started. Neither has been moved down and it is frustrating. my team has two people who are rated spot on and one person who is strong for their rating. Everyone else besides my new player is and has been struggling with their game for their rating. If you couple this with them facing people who are strong for their rating. It looks like the other team has been sandbagging for some time and just now starting to play their game. I know this is not true but it does get a little frustrating being so far behind the rest of the teams for so many seasons in a row.
So I can see where Derrick is coming from and understand it. I am tired of being hit over the head too. I don't know how long I will have a team if this continues. As long as I do I will keep trying to turn things around.
One other thing that I think should be discussed is the celebration of other players misfortune. Like yelling and clapping when someone scratches. I know of a couple of people in my league who do this and I am tired of hoping that they stop doing it. I don't like making enemies in the league but I will be writing people up for this if they demonstrate a pattern. In my opinion it is total BS and should be stopped. I can understand telling your player that they can do it and encouraging them, but not celebrating the other teams mistakes. And then after telling them that it is getting embarrassing how much they are getting beat by and that they need to go practice to make it a match. When I calm down from this one I will do an evaluation on this person but I don't want to be cussing the LO out in the writeup.
Insert inspirational sentence here. |
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CAMARILLO Issues (Airing Dirty Laundry)
