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Torsten
USA
401 Posts |
 Posted - 06/06/2005 : 3:26:25 PM
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| I was just cruising around the 9-ball stats and I was thinking... (are you done laughing yet?) Wouldn't it be neat to see how many match points a player has earned for their team in addition to their MVP points? Margin of victory is critical in 9-ball and seeing how many match points a player has earned could be a good strategic tool for captains to use. I realize this probably would require too much extra work to be feasible but what do you all think? |
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trhxke
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2005 : 11:46:06 AM
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I think any information that can be provided should be provided.
I also think it would be nice if the Skill Level change date were available.
Example: a 4 becomes a 5 one week and you have to play them the next week or vice versus a 5 goes down to a 4 and you have to play them the very next match.
or a 4 has been a 4 for 2 years and you have to play them this week!
It would definitely make a difference how I would match up my players.
Tom Hardinger
www.BigRigToys.com
Your Internet Source for pool cues, darts and colletibles. |
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Torsten
USA
401 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2005 : 12:35:45 PM
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I agree, Tom. I always research my opponents to try and create the best opportunity for my team and the individuals on it to be successful. Unfortunately, I think it's going to boil down to something that requires too much work for the administrators at this time. I brought it up as a "in a perfect world" scenario or perhaps as something that can be implemented in seasons to come. Lets try to get some support for this one though. In addition to providing us captains with important info, it gives the competitive players in the league who pride themselves on improvement and helping their teams a pride point to reference. Thank you for your supportive response
Torsten |
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2005 : 2:54:21 PM
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Actually, it wouldn't be that hard to implement. What I'm wondering though, is how useful the information would really be. Match points are more often a reflection of how the OPPONENT shot than how that player performed. You wouldn't believe how many players shoot a 19-1 or 18-2 and get an unimpressive score for it.
Phil
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2005 : 2:55:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by trhxke
I think any information that can be provided should be provided.
I also think it would be nice if the Skill Level change date were available.
Example: a 4 becomes a 5 one week and you have to play them the next week or vice versus a 5 goes down to a 4 and you have to play them the very next match.
or a 4 has been a 4 for 2 years and you have to play them this week!
It would definitely make a difference how I would match up my players.
Tom Hardinger
www.BigRigToys.com
Your Internet Source for pool cues, darts and colletibles.
Don't hold your breath. That one's virtually impossible.
Phil
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trhxke
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2005 : 3:48:51 PM
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No problem Phil, I don't hold my breath.
Tom Hardinger
www.BigRigToys.com
Your Internet Source for pool cues, darts and colletibles. |
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Torsten
USA
401 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2005 : 4:10:47 PM
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| Phil I see what you are saying. I still think it would be a valuable tool, especially in evaluating newer players. I don't need to see match points to know that Richard Haydt is gonna destroy me 99 times out of a 100, if not more. But someone I have never heard of is tough to gage just by their skill level alone. Also, I'm not recommending that there be a trophy for it but it would be a fun thing to mention at the captains meeting. "This season, Joe Blow won 186 match points for his team, the most of any player in Division X" It's something a player can take pride in. That probably wasn't the best example and its not something I have my heart set on. That being said, I have great fun in the APA and this is something I feel would increase the 'fun factor' for everyone. |
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Keith
USA
242 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2009 : 1:35:58 PM
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I got bored and wanted to see what some of the first topics covered. You know back when we were still in an ice age. This one caught my eye and I agree with Torsten on this topic.
Phil I am wondering if this is something you would be willing to do or if things have changed since then. |
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movistar
193 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2009 : 11:05:32 AM
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hey... thanks for bring up the topic of "changing something"..
I have mentioned this idea to a lot of people the past few weeks and many if not most agreed with me once I EXPLAINED it to them...
The INNINGS a player has, has NOTHING TO do with how good a pool shooter he is, in fact, sometimes , the more he has the better he is expecially if he WINS the game! ... the "COMPUTER" cannot see WHY the amount of innings are a LOT, or a FEW. Let's do away with "innings"...It would make score keeping much easier... the bottom line, is, did he win or lose !!!if the player keeps winning as a lower level but, consistantly, has a lot of innings and his skill level doesn't go up...something is wrong. This would also discourage players from "sandbagging" to "get more innings"...oopss did I say that ??(HOW many times have you heard a player ask during a game, "how many innings do I have"?
this would also make it EASIER for Phil and Taz, cause this is another step they could take away from their statistics and computer input !
I would rather see how many "Ball in Hand" fouls occured....this is a better indicator of how good (or bad) he is, not by how many times he gets to shoot!
and you were saying.............
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Showtime
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2009 : 09:45:59 AM
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I disagree; innings are extremely important. When you consider defensive shots combined with (or subtracted from) innings, it can be very telling. I tend to check innings after every match. A rough estimate on average, most matches last about 22 innings, when you subtract total defensive shots from total innings (again on average).
The addiditions I would like to see are:
9-ball team final score (i.e. 62-38 or 45-55)
8-ball team final score (i.e. 5-0 or 2-3)
These could be added to the team schedule page (off to the right or something like that). |
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movistar
193 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2009 : 10:22:07 AM
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innings are important ONLY, because the APA tells us that they are used to handicap a persons skill level.... but that doesn't tell us how good a person really shoots. Many times players can shoot the SAME ball SEVERAL times trying to make it (not playing safties), only to miss and get a "lucky" leave and suddenly you have 5-6 or more innings and a ball hasn't been made. then they get "hot" and run the table... but the computer only SEES that they had over 6 or MORE innings in one game! this can be true in both 8 & 9 ball.
once again... getting rid of innings would eliminate one more thing a sandbagger "watches" to keep his skill level from going up, and it doesn't hurt anybody to do away with it.
and like I said.. Phil and Taz would have one less step to worry about!
example.... a player who is a 2-3-4 etc and wins OVER 50% of their games should NOT remain at that skill level, JUST BECAUSE they had 22 or more innings.
bottom line... do they WIN or LOSE ???
fouls and ball in hand are much more important than innings.
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Keith
USA
242 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2009 : 1:11:31 PM
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In matches higher skilled players may have a rack or two with a lot of innings. But they tend to be averaged out by all of the racks with little to no innings. This stat also goes along with who they faced and what the outcome of the match is among other things. If you take away any one of the factors that go into the equation you break it and make it much easier to manipulate. You have to remember that the players are not the only ones in a position of manipulating the system. You have the score keeper and the captain or person determining the match ups. If you take any power away from one of the areas you give it to the others and the people that can manipulate that area. Having innings gives you more data and the more data you have the better decision you can make. Even tainted data can tell you a thing or two about the truth.
If my player is a 4 and I put them up against 2s who don't know anything about pool. Should my 4 go up for beating these people? |
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Moose Dragon
USA
128 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2009 : 9:18:03 PM
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I don't think it would be better without innings being counted, however I do believe the system gives to much weight to innings. I have had two players go up after losing a match. With the explanation of: they were on the bubble and put up a good fight. The most important fact in the system should be wins and loses, with opponent skil level and record next.
Torsten it took a while but I finally quit laughing long enough to type this. |
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Matt
38 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2009 : 08:19:27 AM
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Three flaws I see in some or all of the above arguments:
1) You can't just assume that the system is giving "too much" weight to innings, as supposedly nobody knows the secret recipe.
2) The system is (again, supposedly) going to average out a performance over time. Innings are an average, and a player that "gets hot" or has a bad night or two is not going to affect the average amount of innings in any significant manner. If they consistently "get hot" then they are no longer just "getting hot" but actually playing better, and probably will and should move up. The opposite is true if they consistently have "bad nights". I blame all my losses on "bad nights," but really I just suck at pool.
3) Higher skilled players are not going to average a lot of innings unless those innings are accompanied by a lot of safety shots (which were presumably properly recorded). If higher level players are consistently missing shots and therefore logging a lot of innings, they probably shouldn't be higher level players. |
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Showtime
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2009 : 8:53:34 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by movistar[/i]
[br]innings are important ONLY, because the APA tells us that they are used to handicap a persons skill level.... but that doesn't tell us how good a person really shoots. Many times players can shoot the SAME ball SEVERAL times trying to make it (not playing safties), only to miss and get a "lucky" leave and suddenly you have 5-6 or more innings and a ball hasn't been made. then they get "hot" and run the table... but the computer only SEES that they had over 6 or MORE innings in one game! this can be true in both 8 & 9 ball.
once again... getting rid of innings would eliminate one more thing a sandbagger "watches" to keep his skill level from going up, and it doesn't hurt anybody to do away with it.
and like I said.. Phil and Taz would have one less step to worry about!
example.... a player who is a 2-3-4 etc and wins OVER 50% of their games should NOT remain at that skill level, JUST BECAUSE they had 22 or more innings.
bottom line... do they WIN or LOSE ???
fouls and ball in hand are much more important than innings.
I think few posts between yours and this one talk about the long-run average. Thus,once and a while having a game where a high ranked SL shoots the same ball six times will work itself out.
Alternatively, in the early 1990's I was shooting 9 ball tournements (don't remember if it was BCS or what) and we use to keep track of shots when you have no clear shot at your object ball (not only the result of a defensive shot, but unintentionally too). This is a stat that I'm surprised we don't track because I believe this could really fine tune the SL's. Furthermore, it would do away with the situation you were talking about. |
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Keith
USA
242 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2009 : 9:16:02 PM
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| That might have been taps |
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Topic |
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match points
