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Aprules
USA
10 Posts |
 Posted - 09/14/2010 : 3:05:23 PM
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So, This has come up more than once.
You call a third eye when you think there might be a chance of a foul.
What happens if there was no reason to call a third eye, and yet the player fouls? Then the shooter claims they didn't foul even though your entire team that was watching says it was a foul. Because you didn't call a third eye, the decision goes to the shooter.
There has to be a better way. |
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2010 : 3:25:38 PM
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If the shooter is insistent that they did not foul, yes.
Come up with a better way that also addresses this situation. The sitting team calls fouls that aren't fouls a lot.
It should cover this situation as well. Nobody on the sitting team was close enough to know without a doubt that a foul occurred. The shooter knows for sure (in this specific instance) that they did not foul. The sitting team insists that they did. How do you resolve it?
Sometimes there really isn't a better way and you have to live with things the way they are.
Phil
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rhaydt
USA
109 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2010 : 3:43:32 PM
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| Unless you have a critical situation I have found that the shooter's captain tends to be best person to watch a close shot. Plus it does not slow down the match. This works in Thousand Oaks, Camarillo... not so much. |
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Aprules
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2010 : 3:45:38 PM
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Maybe you dedicate a player on each team to be a constant third eye. The captain or scorekeeper should be watching close enough to see if it was a foul. It should not be up to the shooter. The shooter almost always says it wasn't a foul regardless of the shot. It is in their best interest.
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Taz
USA
555 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2010 : 9:18:03 PM
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1. Players with INTEGRITY call their own fouls.
2. There is no such thing as a "third eye". There would be no point in having 3 different people watching a hit. There is a "third party" that watches the shot.
3. The best third party would be a higher skill level player, preferably not a member of either team. If there isn't one in the location, then the third party should be one that is agreed upon by the two SHOOTERS (not the captains, coaches, or significant others). After all, it is the shooters that will have to live with the third party's decision.
4. PLAYERS WITH INTEGRITY CALL THEIR OWN FOULS. Having said that, there are many instances in which a lower skill level player does not understand he/she has committed a foul and then it becomes a captain's responsability to educate their player. |
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rhaydt
USA
109 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2010 : 11:43:58 AM
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There are several situations where the shooter is not reliable at calling fouls. As Taz stated, lower skill level players. And failure to hit a rail, because the shooter's focus may be elsewhere. Unfortunately there are teams that do not call their fouls, and so you do not have a choice but to find a third party.
APArules suggested a referee, I do not believe that this could ever work. To begin with very few players in the APA could even qualify as a referee. |
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Aprules
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2010 : 2:51:19 PM
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TAZ - I agree with your philosophy on integrity. However...if everyone had it this would never come up. Reality Check, not all pool players are of the highest moral fiber and come with the expected integrity.
God forbid we disagree - and the other player jumps to 'you callin me a liar?!' which while not intended or provoked, does happen and can lead to more heated discussions (especially after a few beers).
The trick is finding a rule that is fair and would help alleviate disputes. I think agree that the team captains should have some say if there is dispute. Right now, it just goes to the shooter, regardless of if my captain was watching or if she agrees it is fair or foul. That simply isn't right.
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rhaydt
USA
109 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2010 : 10:38:53 AM
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The captains on most teams are usually given the last say so. At the Nationals some years back a ref was called to watch a hit. Nobody agreed with the ref's call. Both captains got together and reversed the ref's call. Both the players and captains were satisfied with the decision.
Many times I have seen captains call fouls on their players when the player did not realize that there was a foul.
The problem comes when there is a disagreement. Then you need a tie breaker. Giving the shooter the trump card is probably the best solution. Regardless of ability they were still the closest person to the shot.
One of my pet peeves is the player who fouls on a missed shot and quietly leaves the table hoping that the opponent does not notice. This happens way to often, so now we have a situation where the opponent is always asking if the hit was good. We may need a sportsmanship rule that requires players to hand the cue ball over.
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Torsten
USA
401 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2010 : 6:48:25 PM
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Committing a foul and not admitting it is among the most serious sportsmanship violoations. This may not apply to some lower ranked players, but if you feel like someone has fouled, knows it, and won't own up to it, report it. Fill out the form. It may not give you instant gratification, but if it becomes a pattern and the league receives repeated complaints about someone fouling and claiming otherwise, then there's something to look at.
I think the worst time to have a heart attack would be during a game of charades... or during a game of fake heart attack. |
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1poolaholic
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2010 : 12:38:42 PM
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What about physically impossible shots that are the push shots where there is a unseen double hit on the cue ball when the object ball and the speed of the cue matches when the shooter shoots straight through the frozen or near frozen cue ball & object ball and the shooter thinks they made a legal hit? Third eye or not isn't that a foul? Ignorance to the rules should not condone violating them. That is also an integrity issue. Unintentional cheating is still cheating. The rules and the physics of the game are set in stone right? Or does the shooter get a green light to do what they think is right even though it is a proven fact that they are wrong. With that the integrity of the game is from there on compromised. Am I incorrect in saying so?
Kevin Brown |
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rhaydt
USA
109 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2010 : 2:37:49 PM
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Push shots are covered on page 97 of the team manual. It is not a foul but can be considered a sportsmanship violation. I always allow my opponents to take a free timeout to explain the situation to the player.
Richard |
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Moose Dragon
USA
128 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2010 : 4:50:19 PM
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1poolaholic,
The very definition of a cheater is someone that knowingly breaks the rules. In my opinion your statement of "unintentional cheating is still cheating" is incorrect. There is no such thing as unintentional cheating. Intent is the very essence of cheating, without it you just have ignorance of the rules. However, I get your overall point and agree with it.
Also any double hits have to be watched by a third party in order to be called a foul. It is a tough rule but there are reasons for it.
These are the opinons of this poster and are not necessarily shared by me or anyone else. |
Edited by - Moose Dragon on 10/06/2010 07:33:55 AM |
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Showtime
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2010 : 11:34:58 AM
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1poolaholic,
If you see a player about to take a "physically impossible shot," then your captain or shooting player should be aware of the situation and ask for a third eye.
I agree ignorance is not an excuse. However, you know when and how to ask for a third eye, so if you don't ask for a third eye, who is being ignorant? The person that doesn't know they are committing a foul? Or, the opponent that suspects a shooter is about to foul, and the shooter doesn't understand that they are about to foul, yet they are expected to call a foul on themselves?
If I saw one of my players double hit a ball I would call it. I do not see every shot. However, prior to my player taking that shot I would either have the other team explain the rule of a double hit or call a time-out. At this point, I would also call for a third eye to watch the hit.
You know the rules and a third eye is okay to ask for with questionable shots. Calling a foul on a player that doesn't know better when you didn't ask for a third eye is ridiculous. This quite often is done as a form of sharking. Or, are people ignorant of sharking?
P.S. 1poolaholic, just so you know, I am not calling you ignorant; I am calling a hypothetical person ignorant.
If I disagree with you, it is because I am right. |
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Calcwby4u
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2011 : 1:27:07 PM
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From a previous post .....
"At the Nationals some years back a ref was called to watch a hit. Nobody agreed with the ref's call. Both captains got together and reversed the ref's call. Both the players and captains were satisfied with the decision."
REALLY? REALLY???? REALLY????????
Since when has a referees decision on a call been able to be reversed when nobody agrees with it? You actually got together and reversed the ref's decision? Doesn't the rule book say the referees decision is FINAL? Where was the referee when you did this? Never would this happen in any other organization but THE APA but it's oh so typical of every APA event.
Another reason I generally don't support any APA higher level tournament. The referees don't know the rules and/or don't know how to interpret them or enforce them. Sort of like the last US AMATEUR OPEN QUALIFIER held at Stixx in Rancho Cucamonga.
All these rules and regulations and dress codes and all the money spent to print them all nice and fancy. And you get there and NOTHING and I mean NOTHING is enforced. So why the hell bother.
I'll play my Tues. & Thurs. if the numbers work and I'll go home. $7 a night to play is all that the APA will get from me from now on.
IT'S A JOKE.
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Moose Dragon
USA
128 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2011 : 5:13:41 PM
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Calcwby4u,
Why don't you start a new league and adopt a set of rules that will govern tens of thousands of players, representitives, and referees all of various levels and all across the country with differant levels of league play and tournaments. While your at it make it so everyone is happy, and there is never a situation where someone is disappointed. When you are done with that creating world peace should be easy. I have said many times the APA has come closer then any other handicap sport I have played in. Its not perfect, but then what is.
These are the opinons of this poster and are not necessarily shared by me or anyone else. |
Edited by - Moose Dragon on 10/11/2011 5:16:56 PM |
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2011 : 6:50:30 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Calcwby4u[/i]
[br]From a previous post .....
"At the Nationals some years back a ref was called to watch a hit. Nobody agreed with the ref's call. Both captains got together and reversed the ref's call. Both the players and captains were satisfied with the decision."
REALLY? REALLY???? REALLY????????
Since when has a referees decision on a call been able to be reversed when nobody agrees with it? You actually got together and reversed the ref's decision? Doesn't the rule book say the referees decision is FINAL? Where was the referee when you did this? Never would this happen in any other organization but THE APA but it's oh so typical of every APA event.
Don't kid yourself. It can (and does) happen everywhere, in every organization, any time the ref isn't looking. There's nothing special about APA in that scenario, it was simply a case of people breaking rules and not getting caught. I don't appreciate your painting such a narrow picture.
quote:
Another reason I generally don't support any APA higher level tournament. The referees don't know the rules and/or don't know how to interpret them or enforce them. Sort of like the last US AMATEUR OPEN QUALIFIER held at Stixx in Rancho Cucamonga.
All these rules and regulations and dress codes and all the money spent to print them all nice and fancy. And you get there and NOTHING and I mean NOTHING is enforced. So why the hell bother.
It's not clear to me from your previous post whether you asked those in charge to enforce the dress code at the U.S. Amateur Preliminaries, but the post reads as if you did not. If you did, what reason was given for the lack of enforcement? If you did not, why not?
I haven't been directly involved with the US Amateur, so I can't say for sure, but I'd imagine the dress code is relaxed at the preliminary rounds but still in the rules because the same rules apply to the main event, where the dress code is better enforced. I bet it's like the National Team Championships, where certain things are allowed in the earlier rounds that aren't allowed later, because that's where the TV cameras and other media are.
quote:
I'll play my Tues. & Thurs. if the numbers work and I'll go home. $7 a night to play is all that the APA will get from me from now on.
IT'S A JOKE.
Again, nothing you describe is unique to APA. If you have an issue at a tournament, bring it to the attention of those in charge and it will be addressed.
You are certainly not required to participate in any of these events, even weekly play. If you choose to play weekly, you may take some comfort in knowing that we only get $3 of the $7 you spend, so $3 a night is all the APA will get from you from now on. It's your money, and your decision. I'm ok with whatever you decide.
Phil
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3rd Eye
