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BigRigTom
USA
102 Posts |
 Posted - 04/13/2009 : 3:31:54 PM
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I have just thought of a scoring method that maybe should be considered for use in APA 8 ball matches....I think....it goes like this.
Award 1 point for each ball legally pocketed and 1 point for winning the game plus the game winner should also be awarded 1 point for each ball his opponent has left on the table at the end of the rack.
An 8 ball break would only be worth 8 points at most, Possible less if balls other than the 8 were made at the time of the break.
This would encourage teams to have higher skill levels while the 23 rule will continue to limit how many you can play in which match. This would also change the way captains would have to look at matching up against various skill levels....it may no longer be a good idea to sacrifice the 2 by throwing them at the 7.
Any comments ...anybody?
BigRigTom
http://hardingersystems.com/BAT-Forum to discuss Billiards and Trucking or anything that interest you! |
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Keith
USA
242 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2009 : 8:07:24 PM
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A big hole in this concept is that it makes highly rated players the focal point on every team. Also when I get an 8 ball break or break and run it should count as much as yours. If this system you speak of were to be put in place. You would have players bickering about the order in which the balls are racked. This is because the corner balls have the most momentum and a higher chance of going in. If they are a solid and a stripe then that is a negative for the person breaking. By the way why are you complaining about having to play as a 7 against a 2. If you think about it it is no different than playing against a 7. If you make a mistake then you pay for it. I think the system in place is doing what it is meant to do. So leave it alone.
Hey I was just told that we are supposed to make the balls in the pockets. That makes a big difference. |
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Keith
USA
242 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2009 : 8:09:29 PM
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Another thing is that the system you propose is one that rewards hill hill matches more than rackless nights. You would only be giving more incentive to sandbag.
Hey I was just told that we are supposed to make the balls in the pockets. That makes a big difference. |
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D-RACK
USA
321 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2009 : 10:17:16 AM
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Sorry tom dont like it at all
"If it aint BROKE dont try and fix it!"
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BigRigTom
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2009 : 10:30:11 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by D-RACK[/i]
[br]Sorry tom dont like it at all
"If it aint BROKE dont try and fix it!"
Thanks Drack!
I know it won't change but I like to look at alternatives sometimes just for the mental exercise.
Thanks Keith for your comments too.
I'm not really complaining about any of the present situations. I was just thinking about possible improvements that could benefit everyone.
I know that the idea is NEW and thus it immediately meets resistance.
It is also a very ruff draft of a scoring system which would have to be fleshed out dramatically to even have a chance of working...that is all ok with me.
My intent when posting this suggestion was to spark a dialog.
I often hear players complain that in 8 ball they don't get any credit for shooting good, only for winning.
All of us have had games where we shot really good but lost anyway. I have had many of them myself. Sometimes it would be nice to get some credit for having shot good even if you lose the match.
BigRigTom
http://hardingersystems.com/BAT-Forum to discuss Billiards and Trucking or anything that interest you! |
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2009 : 3:45:04 PM
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I got close to completing a long reply just now, but decided to hold off for a while and see where this thread goes. I don't want to influence anyone's thought process just yet, so have fun kicking this thread around for a while...
Phil
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rhaydt
USA
109 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2009 : 4:25:52 PM
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My suggestion is to play 9-ball if you want credit for playing good. It is a great alternative especially for low skill level players. The pressure is off and you get partial credit if you lose.
Leave 8-ball alone. |
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Keith
USA
242 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2009 : 9:21:58 PM
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Here is a thought that would punish forfeits on both sides. each team gets one point for each match played and two points for each win making the best possible night 15. This would put an emphasis on playing the matches. If there is a forfeit then the one point for playing the match is not awarded to either team. The two points are still awarded to the team who receives the forfeit. I think this could be interesting and gives one point credit to the losing player.
Hey I was just told that we are supposed to make the balls in the pockets. That makes a big difference. |
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Keith
USA
242 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2009 : 9:28:24 PM
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Tom though I don't agree with the system you proposed. I agree that it is good that you posted it. The system may not be broken. But I think that it makes us more involved in the league to talk about subjects such as this.
Hey I was just told that we are supposed to make the balls in the pockets. That makes a big difference. |
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D-RACK
USA
321 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2009 : 09:54:16 AM
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NO time or mental exercise....LOL jk
Tom let me ask you this... u said "..it may no longer be a good idea to sacrifice the 2 by throwing them at the 7."
7 should win 90% of the time i would take a Win any time .....
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BigRigTom
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2009 : 10:17:05 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by D-RACK[/i]
[br]NO time or mental exercise....LOL jk
Tom let me ask you this... u said "..it may no longer be a good idea to sacrifice the 2 by throwing them at the 7."
7 should win 90% of the time i would take a Win any time .....
I am not sure you understood what I meant.....
We often play teams that try to nullify the best player by throwing their lowest player into the match....reasoning that their lowest player will lose regardless who they play so why not sacrafice them against the player of the opponent that is likely to win regardless of who he plays.
This is done a lot more in 8 ball than in 9 ball and it is because of the scoring system presently used.
I am NOT saying that is wrong, I am simply saying that it happens.
Changing the scoring system could potentially take away the incentive to do that sort of match making. The lower skill level player benefits slightly by being able to play a match in which they have MORE of a CHANCE of winning.
BigRigTom
http://hardingersystems.com/BAT-Forum to discuss Billiards and Trucking or anything that interest you! |
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movistar
193 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2009 : 11:30:37 AM
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in 8 ball ....here is the BEST!!!!! the simplest and most FAIR way to do the scoring.
award ONE point for each match won... done!
forget about getting 6 points if you beat a six or 2 if you beat a two.
use the handicap system to determine how many games to win but only award ONE point for winning the match!
this is FAIR for everyone.
same thing in 9 ball... use the handicap system to determine how many balls to make... but only award ONE point for winning the match! done!
awarding 7 points to a 3 who beats a 7 and only awarding
2 points to a 6 who beats a 2 is NOT a fair way to score
lets make an historical change in the APA and change the scoring system to make this a true "player friendly" league...
thanks for reading |
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Torsten
USA
401 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2009 : 12:09:53 PM
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Couple of thoughts here.
On getting credit for playing well despite losing: This happens to all of us, does it not? I guarantee it also happens that you play poorly but squeak out a win. It evens out. If you play well and lose, you should take pride in your performance, and congratulate your opponent who must have been shooting extraordinarily well to defeat you while you were on your game.
On throwing the lamb into the wolf pen: Strategically, it can make sense to dump against a high ranked player. Here's how you avoid that. Don't throw your 7 up to be sacrificed against. I will almost never do this, as I like to play against opponents above my level. However, if we're in TOC and our opponent says, "Okay, T. For the first match, I'm putting up Richard Haydt." Have fun against my lowest player, Richard. Now, granted, I don't know any captains that would hang Richard (or any player of similar statue) out to dry like that. You can't argue with the logic that Richard is likely to beat anyone on my team, so why would I put my strongest player against him. Again, I don't love this strategy, but sacrificing one match to play downhill in the other four has served many teams well.
On Forfeits: Interesting idea, Keith. Not practical, but interesting. There are already things in place to encourage teams not to forfeit. For example, AUTOMATICALLY LOSING!!! If you need to offer teams incentive to actually show up, that's the sign of a problem far bigger than the scoring system.
On balls left on the table: Any game where margin of victory is irrelevant renders that statistic useless. Keeping track of such nonsense is just one more place for an inebriated scorekeeper (quite possibly me) to screw up and miss out on my taz buck. If I break and run, leaving my opponent with 7 balls on table, did I kick his ass? Or did I simply never give him the chance. If my opponent breaks, and gets unlucky not to have sunk anything, and I run out, did I kick his ass? Also, by awarding points for balls left on the table, you're penalizing use of the safety shot where you carom legally off of your object ball into your opponent's ball which is sitting in the pocket. Sorry. Considering margin of victory for 8 ball is a pet peeve of mine.
More on this later. Work to do. :-) |
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BigRigTom
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2009 : 12:27:15 PM
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I really like the diversity of the opinions already stated here. Kuddos to Phil for allowing the open debate to get interesting.
I normally advise my team that the rules do not matter as long as both players are playing by the same rules it should be a fair contest even if the opponents are mismatched.
More power to those who make an effort to understand the rules then use that understanding to their own advantage where possible.
Even more power to those who understand that "change" can be a good thing when applied thoughtfully, with the correct intent, and monitored for consistency with the intent by someone who fully understands the impact of that change.....let the debate continue....
BigRigTom
http://hardingersystems.com/BAT-Forum to discuss Billiards and Trucking or anything that interest you! |
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Nathaniel
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2009 : 3:06:36 PM
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YEAH!!! WHAT TORSTEN SAID...
Nathaniel H. |
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Keith
USA
242 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2009 : 3:26:02 PM
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Nat: Have an original idea. Movistar: Sorry but I like 9 ball the way it is except for the 23 rule. That might be because my team has trouble keeping it at 23 or less though. Torsten: My idea was to punish both sides of the forfeit not just the one that forfeits.
play and win = 3 points
win by forfeit = 2 points
play and lose = 1 point
lose by forfeit = 0 points
It more or less rewards actually playing the match.
Hey I was just told that we are supposed to make the balls in the pockets. That makes a big difference. |
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Topic |
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Suggest changing 8 ball scoring method
