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RAAAWWWR
3 Posts |
 Posted - 08/12/2010 : 12:21:10 PM
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| last night i witnessed a truly atrocious move by a player. the pocket was not marked, but it was clear where the player intended the 8. the other player did not remind him to mark the pocket. when the ball went in, she told the player she was taking that game, and that resulted in her winning. her captain tried to talk to her and tell her she should change her mind, but she stated that she hasn't won all season and she was taking the win. i understand the rule is there for a reason, but if anything is unsportmanlike, it's that. in my opinion, there is no room in APA for people like that! |
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movistar
193 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2010 : 12:39:34 PM
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if that is the case.. let's just get rid of ALL rules and we have NO NEED for a rules committee....
next time I just HAPPEN to "forget to AIM" and hit the wrong ball... please let me have the shot over and call it good sportsmanship .... rules are rules....if I got called on "NOT marking the pocket"... and lose a game.. I probably would NOT forget again.. that is part of LEARNING ... there was NOTHING unsportsmanship at all about taking the win.... I am sure that 8 people were watching the shot that could have said "MARK YOUR POCKET" !!!
Hitting someone in the back while they are shooting is probably unsportsman like... but FOLLING THE RULES is not |
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Matt
38 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2010 : 10:27:44 PM
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Disagree, that's horrible. "Rules are rules" are the reason there is a forum called "spirit of the rules". Living by the rulebook is not what it is about.
That said, this is a shot-specific situation and the poster did not provide a ton of info. If it is a 2 or 3, shooting the length of the table, they should be marking their pocket or their captain should be reminding them to mark their pocket. If there is any doubt about which pocket they are going for it should be marked and it should be a loss if not marked.
If it is a clearly obvious shot, and everyone on both teams knew exactly what the shooter was attempting to do, I would never in a million years take a win or let anyone on my team take a win for that, whether or not the pocket was marked. Sometimes a loss is a loss and you just have to accept that you lost and not look towards the rulebook for a technicality. |
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Moose Dragon
USA
128 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2010 : 08:20:24 AM
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Matt,
I completely agree with you. I have seen teammates lose this way and it is difficult to swallow. However, this situation had three opportunities to not be an issue.
1. the player that shot the 8-ball should have payed attention and not put their opponent and captain in the position of having to make this decision, by marking his pocket.
2. The opposing player had the ability to act with grace and accept that they were beaten, and they did not.
3. The Captain of the opposing player should have stepped up and not taken the win.
Now, all this only matters if it was a truly obvious shot. A shot where the 8-ball was sitting in the pocket or a dead straight short shot, something like that. If there was any possibility of more than one shot being possible than tghe opposing player acted properly and the loss is the right thing to do.
The reason for marking the pocket of the 8-ball is to take away any doubt or confussion as to what the shooter is doing. How many times have you seen a shooter make a cut shot and then laugh and say I was trying to bank that and missed horribly or something like that. Well if that is the 8-ball then what if the player just takes the shot and win even though it was the wrong pocket? This is one rule that definitly is difficult to enforce in certain situations and with good concience.
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Matt
38 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2010 : 09:25:06 AM
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I agree with your post and I agree that it is situational. The point I was making is that to say you can not possibly be unsportsmanlike just because you are "folling the rules" is not true and a bit spineless.
I like option #2 above. |
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Moose Dragon
USA
128 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2010 : 10:31:03 AM
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| I agree, I have had several people angry with me because I followed the rules. I also agree that the person can be unsportsmanlike in their efforts to follow those rules. I guess it depends on the people involved. |
Edited by - Moose Dragon on 08/13/2010 10:31:33 AM |
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wyldbill
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2010 : 12:06:28 PM
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All,
I was at this match, there was no question about where the 8 was going but that is not the issue is it? There are 2 issues I think, rules and sportmansship.
1. Rules, simple the rules say that you mark your pocket.
2. Sportmanship, grey area huh? I guess it comes down to why you play. Most of the poeple in the league I play in are there for fun FRIENDLY competition and a night out with friendds and maybe make some new ones.
Apparently not everyone is there for those reasons. I have just learned that some are there just to win a game of pool. This is sad for that player in my opinion because they are not getting the full experience of the APA.
It is my opinion that this will ruin the experience for that player. As an example the player that choose to take the rules are rules route in this situation, I don't think there will be a team that will ask them to play with them in this league in the future, I know I surely would not.
Honestly a tough situation but the only 2 people that it matters to are the players in that match no matter what anyone else says. (Believe me LOTS of people in the bar that night had lots to say and most of not nice to the player)I hope everyone realizes that this too IS BAD SPORTSMANSHIP!
- I am actually on the team that lost first place ranking due to this decision but I support the fact that the player choose to use the rule as their decision. (it is their right to do so.) Unfortunately I won't be too motovated to be friendly with the player due to the fact that obviously they are only there to win a game and that makes the player an foe not a friend.  Life is Good
Life is good |
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movistar
193 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2010 : 09:33:22 AM
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as a player ... I make it a point to watch my opponent shoot every shot because that is MY responsibility....I have NEVER taken a game if the player didn't mark the pocket because I always remind him to MARK the POCKET!! .....if that doesn't work... then ......\
as for all these players in the league who JUST PLAY TO HAVE FUN ...Great! ....but remember "just playing to have fun" also controls the skill level and ratings... if a player doesn't play to his MAXIMUM ability on EVERY game.. I consider that SANDBAGGING and it sure affects the play in regional tournaments when a player "just plays to have fun" during the season and their team goes to playoffs or reginals and they "STEP UP" their game and play as an "UNDERATED " player because during the season, they were "JUST PLAYING TO HAVR FUN"! I think the "computer" should raise the skill level of every person who "JUST plays to have fun" you can have just as much fun playing as a 7 as you can as a 4 .... that being said... HAVE FUN and shoot well....and it is FUN to win...
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2010 : 10:32:50 AM
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Playing to have fun and trying your best every time up are not mutually exclusive. You can do both at the same time, so adjusting skill levels just because someone plays for fun wouldn't be right. Adjusting skill levels because someone's idea of fun is shooting one-handed or choosing harder shots just because they're harder and not because they are strategically advantageous, now that DOES make sense. In these cases, the "having fun" part is in direct conflict with the "trying your best" part.
In this specific instance, the skill levels would be more accurate for the "having fun" people, right? If you take the game, it shows as a win for you and a loss for the opponent, when skill-wise, it was actually the other way around.
Phil
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seabeebrat43
1 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2010 : 1:16:03 PM
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I am the player that seems to be the 'buzz' of this topic. I'm not looking to start anything, however RAAAWWWR if you're going to quote me, please do it correctly.
I agree that I should have given him the win. And I would, if he and I were able to discuss it! However it was the last match of the season, whether its my opponents first season or not, he should know by now to mark his pocket on an 8ball shot. If this had happened earlier in the season I'd have given it to him.
People from the other team and people not on Wednesday night league were coming at me and verbally attacking me. So you want to talk to me about good sportsmanship? That wasn't it either! If anyone who was SOBER had heard the conversations I'd had with both my Captain and the opposing teams captain they would've heard me say that I'll give the win to the other team...however what made me stand my ground and take the win was that I was being verbally attacked and accused of cheating. If this game is just supposed to be for fun...why such an uproar?
I didn't take the win for a chance in playoffs. I didn't do it to improve my skill level. I know I shoot better than my skill, however because I don't live to play every week like a lot of players and I had an awful season. We all have them. I don't always win. Since playing in league, I've met some interesting people. Made a few friends and learned who can be trusted and who can't be. As well as improved my playing.
My captain told me "its between the players" I tried talking to him but we couldn't get a word in because people were talking for us. Since then numerous people have told me that as well. I got upset and could have acted differently, however the actions and words of others weighed heavily on my final decision. If what I did is going to make people pay more attention to how I play...so be it. I don't break the rules, in fact I ask questions if I'm unsure.
I always make sure my pocket is marked. Again had it been earlier in the season I would've looked the other way. If you have an issue with my decision, talk to me about it rather than distorting my words and reading more into it. Before I made my final decision I was asked "If it was you in that situation, what would you do?" My response "take the loss. I should know better by now."
If you have something you'd like to say and can do so in an appropriate manner...come talk to me.
I show up, play my match, have fun and go home. I get bummed when I loose and happy when I win, but its a game and I move on. You all should too. A new season is starting soon...
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movistar
193 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2010 : 9:15:00 PM
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here is a little side note to all the people who oppose the person who was " just following the rules" when taking the win for not marking the pocket... here is a comparison of a minor infraction.. how would YOU handle this... a person is on the 8 ball and the shot is a VERY easy one.. the 8 ball is sitting one inch from the pocket and the cue ball is about two feet away and he has "marked the pocket"
.. all the shooter has to do is barely hit the 8 and it will go in for the win... EVERYBODY in the bar knows it is an EASY shot and a win... however when adressing the cueball... he BARELY touches the que ball and then procedes to stroke it and make the 8 ball... this is a VERY minor infraction.. the rules say you can't hit the que ball twice and also says , you have to mark the 8 ball pocket !!! but it is a RULE just like marking the pocket......do you say..."that's ok".. we know what you meant to do and give him the win or call it a loss because he touched the que ball twice but "barely " ???? OH by the way I have seen this happen many times.... is it un-sportsmanship to enforce the rules ??? AS a player I Personally would have a hard time taking a win from somebody for not marking the pocket cause it makes me uncomfortable having to "enforce the rule" and puts me in the position of "being an ass"... however if the losing player LEARNS (the HARD way) then this problem would not come up again.
here is an idea.. lets make a rule where the opponent has to tell the other player to mark his pocket and this problem will never happen again. I guarantee if you PLAY TO WIN.. you will always have FUN !!! |
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Moose Dragon
USA
128 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2010 : 08:05:27 AM
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Movistar,
I get what you are saying and the point you are trying to make but those two situations are too differant to compare. First the marking of the 8 ball is designed to remove doubt or confussion. The touching of the cue ball in any way is always a foul (with the exception of having ball in hand). It is also a very well known rule and as far as I know is the rule in all leagues and tournaments. In my opinion there is never a situation where this is not a foul.
To answer your question:
Whether I saw it happen or was told it happened I would ask the player if he did that and if he said yes, well then you lose. I would expect the player to call the foul on himself whether it is the 8 ball or not, or and easy shot or a 3 rail kick shot. The situation you describe is not a gray area at all or subject to opinion like a double hit but is an automatic foul for moving the cue ball. I have done this and always given ball in hand without being asked.
If we allow this than what if that same person walks up to the table for his really easy win on the 8 ball but while he is getting in postion he hits the cue ball with the side of his stick and the cue ball moved across the table. Do we just respot it and continue? If we go down this road than Like you posted earlier in this thread:
" let's just get rid of ALL rules and we have NO NEED for a rules committee...."
If we implement your rule of the opposing player having to tell the shooter to mark the pocket, What is to stop people from not telling them and then saying " I said mark your pocket, you didn't hear me
?" It is the shooters shot, and their responsibility to shoot every shot legally regardless of the situation. Just like the guy in the golf tounament this last weekend that lost a chance to win because he grounded his club in a sand trap. It does not matter he didn't know he was in a sand trap it was his responsibility to know.
I play by the rules and expect others to as well. That being said I know there is a time and place to be forgiving. Myself or my team have only taken a win from someone not marking the 8-ball twice. Both times it was because of the attitude of the player or teammates. On the other hand we have lost that way probably 6 or 7 times. Each time I asked the captain and player if they were going to take the win. It is their decision, and part of the game. When they said yes they were taking the win, I would just shake my head and go on about my business. The mistake was ours not theirs.
Of course these are only my opinions and are subject to change at any time. |
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D-RACK
USA
321 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2010 : 09:23:27 AM
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Had this happen last night in playoffs, other team captain long time APA member was on the HIll in the PLAYOFFS forgot to mark is pocket after marking it 3 times prior. He played a great bank shot (witch he had ball in hand) and won the game. It was obvious where it was going and in the spirt of the game my player shook hands and congratulated him on a good victory.
Moments like these define the person and charter of a team!
I dont know about the prior situation I wasn't there. But as far as I am concerned those of you who question my teams ethics or sportsmanship can kiss my ass!
Derrick |
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Moose Dragon
USA
128 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2010 : 10:24:52 AM
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Derrick,
Kudos to how it was handled. I don't know if I could have been so forgiving on a bank shot.
Why would you end your post with such an aggresive comment? Do you really think it was necessary to try and head off any negative comments directed at you or your teammates with an abusive statement like that? You had to know it is going to generate some negativity towards you.
Just curious.
These are the opinons of the poster and are not necessarily shared by me or anyone else. |
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D-RACK
USA
321 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2010 : 1:00:34 PM
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Cause it has been called into question so often i figure whatever..... My team, mine and whatever...................
But u make a good point i will remove...
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Marking the 8 part 2
