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Jeff Burkhammer
USA
132 Posts |
 Posted - 06/08/2010 : 10:40:19 PM
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Daryl did have some strong points, and great ideas...Something like that could ease an operators headaches, if only a smidge..Ill try not to get too excited about change, I know its no small task.....and btw, "Jam" sounds better....lol.
When your green you grow, when your ripe you rot. |
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Keith
USA
242 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2010 : 05:06:11 AM
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If you get rid of the 23 rule and make it so only 1 7+ player can play in a given week then I would go get a 9 and a bunch of 6s. I would take a 6 over a 4 any day of the week cas they don't need timeouts as often. Trust me there are times my 4s make me want to pull my hair out. I like the 23 rule as it creates balance between the teams. Even though my team has finished last for 3 seasons and we are poised to achieve this feat again. It isn't due to the rule but to things that are happening to my team away from pool. So if any of you could get life to stop taking a dump on my players we should be able to compete.
Insert inspirational sentence here. |
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Jeff Burkhammer
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2010 : 08:15:17 AM
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Read lyrads post. Im not talking about getting rid of 23 rule. The 23 rule is important.
When your green you grow, when your ripe you rot. |
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movistar
193 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2010 : 09:13:22 AM
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thanks Tracy... YOU and Lyrad (and some others) have some very positive and interesting coments , that is why I make a post ( to get the players talking and thinking) we need some incentive to get better....
by NOT moving the level to 25 and keeping the 23 rule, the 9 ball rating system could be adjusted from 1-7 and do away with the 8 and nine level and make it just like 8 ball and league operators should not be so anxious to move 5 and 6's up to a 7 keeping that spot for the VERY good players ( and you know who you are)..the balls needed to win could change like I made in an earlier post. ok everybody... post up... tell me why this would NOT work... I have already told you why it WILL work... have a great day and shoot well
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rhaydt
USA
109 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2010 : 12:07:50 PM
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No doubt that the entire handicapping system is based around the 23 rule. Changing this to 25 would only increase everybody’s skill level.
The handicapping system uses some type of statistical averaging to assign skill levels. Looking at the 8-ball skill levels you will see that the league has an average skill level of around 4.5. If you multiply 4.5 by 5 players you get 22.5. This is not by chance. If the league changed to a 25 rule then I am sure that the average skill level would move up to 5 so that the average team skill level would be 25.
The real problem is with 9-ball which has a skill level range up to 9. I suspect that the average skill level for the league is still around 4.5 but players with a skill level of 8 or 9 have trouble putting together a competitive team. And this is the issue. When I was at the National Tournament I scanned through all of the team rosters that I could and only found only one team with a skill level 8, and no 9’s. And the team that had the 8, played their 6’s instead because it was their best line up. 8’s and 9’s just do not fit very well into the league.
I am sure that the league does not want to see high skill level players dominate in team play, but currently I believe that 8’s and 9’s penalize teams. With a 9 the rest of the team has a maximum 3.5 average skill level. So I think something could be done to help 8’s and 9’s play on a competitive team. One idea that has been around for awhile is to let 8’s and 9’s count as 7 against the 23 rule.
Overall I think that the 9-ball handicapping system is very fair and quite accurate.
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2010 : 3:50:52 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by rhaydt[/i]
[br]No doubt that the entire handicapping system is based around the 23 rule. Changing this to 25 would only increase everybody’s skill level.
The handicapping system uses some type of statistical averaging to assign skill levels. Looking at the 8-ball skill levels you will see that the league has an average skill level of around 4.5. If you multiply 4.5 by 5 players you get 22.5. This is not by chance. If the league changed to a 25 rule then I am sure that the average skill level would move up to 5 so that the average team skill level would be 25.
I think you got that a little bit out of order, Richard. The average skill level of active 8-Ball players is 4.1. In 9-Ball, it's 4.05. The average that you see on a team may be around 4.5, and that's because teams build themselves to the 23 rule. If you change the rule to 25, teams will build themselves to 25, and the average on a team will be closer to 5. There won't be more players with higher skill levels, though - there will just be fewer low-skill players because they won't be as important. There will also be fewer teams whose skill levels average well below 5, because these teams would get killed all the time. There would be fewer players overall, fewer teams, and the league would be more cut-throat and less fun.
Phil
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TracyW3
USA
22 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2010 : 4:32:39 PM
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Your welcome Movistar, Honestly I like that there are a whole 9 skill levels and do believe there is a big difference between a 7 and a 9 or a 1 and a 3... Handicapping should be the "equalizer" and if there is a difference in how a person performs it should be reflected in the skill levels. Let's think about this critically have you ever felt like someone was a 'strong' five (still a five just a strong one), what you are really thinking is this person's SL is a 5+ or 5.5 kind of like a grade. Technically the more skill levels there are the more equal the game play can be. I am not suggesting we make more SLs, just making the point that it wouldn't benefit game play to get rid of any.
The problem to me seems to be a lack of proper score keeping which translates to improper SLs. I can't tell you how many times I have had to go up to the person taking the score during my matches and ask them if they marked a defense, or how many times I find that there's an extra inning or two marked by another team. And while I am on the subject almost everyone in the Foothill League confirms innings with the scorekeeper after each rack. I know you aren't supposed to do that, when I tried to tell my team and the opposing team, they seemed annoyed that I was changing things. I don't know what to do about it. |
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TracyW3
USA
22 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2010 : 4:41:46 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Keith[/i]
[br]If you get rid of the 23 rule and make it so only 1 7+ player can play in a given week then I would go get a 9 and a bunch of 6s. I would take a 6 over a 4 any day of the week cas they don't need timeouts as often. Trust me there are times my 4s make me want to pull my hair out. I like the 23 rule as it creates balance between the teams. Even though my team has finished last for 3 seasons and we are poised to achieve this feat again. It isn't due to the rule but to things that are happening to my team away from pool. So if any of you could get life to stop taking a dump on my players we should be able to compete.
Insert inspirational sentence here.
Keith - Sorry about your team's players falling on hard times, I hope things get better for everyone soon! But watch it dogging on Fours... LOL! I play some of my best matches against sixes. |
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2010 : 5:25:36 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by TracyW3[/i]
[br]Your welcome Movistar, Honestly I like that there are a whole 9 skill levels and do believe there is a big difference between a 7 and a 9 or a 1 and a 3... Handicapping should be the "equalizer" and if there is a difference in how a person performs it should be reflected in the skill levels. Let's think about this critically have you ever felt like someone was a 'strong' five (still a five just a strong one), what you are really thinking is this person's SL is a 5+ or 5.5 kind of like a grade. Technically the more skill levels there are the more equal the game play can be. I am not suggesting we make more SLs, just making the point that it wouldn't benefit game play to get rid of any.
The problem to me seems to be a lack of proper score keeping which translates to improper SLs. I can't tell you how many times I have had to go up to the person taking the score during my matches and ask them if they marked a defense, or how many times I find that there's an extra inning or two marked by another team. And while I am on the subject almost everyone in the Foothill League confirms innings with the scorekeeper after each rack. I know you aren't supposed to do that, when I tried to tell my team and the opposing team, they seemed annoyed that I was changing things. I don't know what to do about it.
When you compare innings, and one team has four while the other team has five, who usually changes? Don't compare innings.
Phil
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rhaydt
USA
109 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2010 : 5:41:02 PM
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Phil,
My first point is that the handicapping system is not absolute, but relative. So changing the 23 rule would have no real affect, because the skill levels would need to adjust upwards accordingly to maintain the balance. I do not believe that the limit should be raised to allow more skilled players on a team. The league has a good mix which allows players who have never picked up a cue stick to play, and still has room for the experienced player.
My real point is that as a 7 in 8-ball I have not found it too difficult to put together a team that can win the division and is competitive in the regionals. But in 9-ball as a 9, it just takes too much away from the rest of the team. We just get killed in higher level tournaments. I cannot remember that last time we even played the full five matches.
But this does not stop me from trying. Its always fun.
Richard
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2010 : 9:25:30 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by rhaydt[/i]
[br]Phil,
My first point is that the handicapping system is not absolute, but relative. So changing the 23 rule would have no real affect, because the skill levels would need to adjust upwards accordingly to maintain the balance. I do not believe that the limit should be raised to allow more skilled players on a team. The league has a good mix which allows players who have never picked up a cue stick to play, and still has room for the experienced player.
Tell me you're not telling me how the handicap system works.
Phil
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Keith
USA
242 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2010 : 03:11:01 AM
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Phil you didn't get the memo? Well you see Richard has been promoted and you might find yourself reporting to him now. Not that we don't appreciate what you do around here but um ya. Oh and um ya I'm going to need you to work on Saturday um ya.
Forget the TPS reports just don't forget your meeting with the Bobs...lol
Insert inspirational sentence here. |
Edited by - Keith on 06/10/2010 03:13:02 AM |
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rhaydt
USA
109 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2010 : 12:08:08 PM
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I am an engineer, I know math and statistics. And I know what happens when you use statistics to characterize any system. You get an average, a mean, and standard deviations. And you can lay this out on any type of scale you wish. For 8-ball the scale is from 2 to 7. Take the skill levels of all of the players in the South Coast League, plot them and you should see a nice bell curve. Since it is a closed scale the ends get chopped a bit. You do not need to know the details on how the skill level is actually calculated. I am only speaking in general terms and using only the information that is in the public domain.
How the innings, games won and lost, matchups, defences, etc. get compiled together to form the skill level is something else and does not need to be part of this subject. And I have no idea how it works and do not really care, except that if this algorithm did get out it would allow players to manipulate their skill level. So I doubt very much that any of the league operators would know how the system works except for those few that might work with the main office on this subject.
My point about the 23 rule is that it cannot be arbitrary. It must be part of the system. You cannot change 23 without changing the system. Changing to 25 would change the system, so you would be right back with the original issue.
Richard
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SFVMark
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2010 : 3:09:54 PM
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Well done Keith. I love the reference.
Wanna come over to MySpace and Twitter my Yahoo till I Google all over your Facebook?
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2010 : 3:39:56 PM
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I agree that you would end up in the same situation, but not because everybody's skill levels went up. It would be because captains put different players on their teams. Who needs a 2 when you can afford to carry another 4?
A while back there was another league with a limit of 25, and individual players were a bit lower than they are in APA. How many APA 2's and 3's did you see in that league? Was there any sandbagging?
Phil
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The APA 23 Rule sucks...
