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movistar
193 Posts |
 Posted - 04/13/2010 : 09:17:27 AM
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ok.. we are about to start a new session so I thought this might be a good time to start some new thoughts....on score keeping
we all know there is a lot to do when keeping score for 9 ball..
many times there are disagreements on how many balls a player made on a rack... here is my suggestion... when re printing the score sheets, lets make a CHANGE.... instead of having the little hash marks across the top and bottom of each player... lets replace the dots with numbers 1 thru 9 and for those of you who can't see this it looks like this 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9/1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9/1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9/1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9/1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9/1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9/1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9- up to the max of 75 and have the score keeper mark off which balls each player makes in a rack... very easy if player #one makes the 1.3.5.6.9 he gets 6 points and player #two makes the 2.4.7.8 he gets 4 points etc. a mark thru a number on BOTH players lines denotes a dead ball !
this change DOES NOT take up anymore space on the page than what is already on there !!!! |
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movistar
193 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2010 : 11:13:55 AM
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a few people are starting to read this post... if you like the idea , repost, if NOT, please post a short response as to why NOT ...thanks only takes a few seconds and it might let the LO know what the other players are thinking.. (or are they)..lol
have a nice day |
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bikercowboy
105 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2010 : 11:36:06 AM
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New ALWAYS confuses and while this appears to be a simple change I would suspect like any change some would like it, others would hate it. This particular method, if I understand correctly, would make scoring each ball made more complex than now. The score keeper would have to know which ball was made which may not be readily apparent to the scorekeeper
Isn't the object to make the object ball? But yes you are right the leave would be awesome if it was your shot. |
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movistar
193 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2010 : 12:14:28 PM
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if a score keeper is WATCHING the game it is VERY simple to see that if the shooter is SHOOTING the 3 ball and ...oopsss.. he missed and made the 7 ... duh... put a mark on the 7 ball.... I would get a NEW score keeper for my game if he wasn't smart enough to see what ball fell in.... if ALL ELSE fails... LOOK IN THE BALL RACK !
let's not make this a complicated matter.................next ? |
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Jinny
36 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2010 : 2:31:35 PM
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I think it's an interesting idea. I'm not sure I see the benefit.
Wouldn't it be just as easy to mark the 3 or the 8 for the wrong player as it is now.
I've scored a lot of matches, and sometimes, it hard enough to keep track of balls falling, let along which balls they were. I notice the higher the skill levels, the faster the balls drop and often times, the scorekeeper is blocked by the players or other folks in establishment, even just for a moment. A lot of scorekeepers will know a ball fell, by hearing it and seeing the same shooter at the table, problem solved.
Adding this step, would then require the scorekeeper to identify which ball fell, while still keeping track of the next ball to fall.
Unless you have problems with scores not matching 50% (or even 25%) of time, which I don't think is the case. It seems to me, that applying this 'safeguard' may be overkill for the problem. IMO
I have found that checking with the other scorekeeper each rack, tends to solve problems that would end up in an argument. |
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Jinny
36 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2010 : 3:01:01 PM
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Just reading again.
I'm having trouble visualizing the scoresheet. I understand replacing a dot for a number. However, the format you propose has a finite number of racks per match. Only 8 (ish) racks will fit across the page. A 9 needs 7.5 racks just to get to the goal and scoring every point. And with early 9's, 9 ball breaks, the majority of the 'rack' sections could go unused.
wouldn't this create wasted space on the scoresheet?
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movistar
193 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2010 : 3:06:00 PM
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I guess ANYTHING is possible if a scorekeeper doesn't pay attention. As for marking the wrong player... that , again happens when a scorkeep is not paying attention. I have never seen a player shoot, and make balls FASTER than I can mark a slash on a piece of paper...lol
if I am shooting and make a ball and a scorekeeper asks me what ball I made.. I would happily tell them...as for "comparing " scores.. who is right ?.. the person who doesn't give in ????
I have seen many cases where the two scores don't match and then the two scorekeeps go back and try to determine who made what ball to see who made a mistake... this would HELP them...thanks for your input.... |
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movistar
193 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2010 : 3:08:08 PM
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| there are already 75 DOTS across the sheet... replace them with numbers.. what about the wasted space when 2 two's play each other ? |
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movistar
193 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2010 : 3:10:33 PM
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| sorry Jinny... I see your point.. but I am sure the space thing would work out |
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2010 : 3:43:57 PM
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Hmmm, interesting idea.
Space is a big issue on the 9-Ball scoresheet. Your proposal would triple the amount of space needed in those tally lines, and since there are ten such lines, that's like adding twenty more of them. That's a lot.
Would it be possible to put 75 empty boxes in each row, and have the scorekeeper write the numbers in the boxes? You could separate racks with slashes between the boxes. They would have to be pretty small boxes, that's for sure.
One other thing to keep in mind is that in some areas, the teams put quarters in the tables to drop the balls. Because of this, they use the higher-number balls if there's an early 9 and enough balls left up for another game. A scoring method like this might make that somewhat complicated.
Just things to think about.
Phil
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stevelobdell
USA
36 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2010 : 3:48:33 PM
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Being the person on my team who keeps score on about 80% of the 9-Ball matches I agree 9-Ball has alot going on.
For dead balls, I don't think marking the ball twice would do much good. That would make it more confusing. But to have the Dead Ball Square of the sheet have 3 lines with 1-3, 4-6, 7-9 where I could tick the dead ball. That would be nice if we went with your new scoring model.
I think the biggest problem with scoring is that we don't have a "scoring table". I score on one side of the room and my opponent scores on the other side of the room. I have seen many times where they are spending the whole match talking to someone and forgets to mark innings or even balls for that matter. Don't get me wrong, sometimes I get distracted too, but not as often as I see others.
After each game we touch bases and when we are off, then it does become quite frustrating.
I think both scorekeepers should be sitting next to each other to score all games/matches. This would eliminate alot of the problems as they can keep an eye on each other after each shot, instead of waiting till the end of a game/match. |
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Jinny
36 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2010 : 4:14:32 PM
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Hey movistar,
LOL! It's true, it is not often a shooter drops balls faster than I can 'tick' then off on the scoresheet. But combine that with a player (not shooting) wonders up to ask "What's the score?" or "How's he doing?" or even "How's your Mom?" (remembering this is a social outing for a lot of people). It is that moment of distraction that will cause the problem. Hell, it IS that moment that causes the problem with the current scoresheet. Even when the scorekeeper says "I'm keeping score, can we talk later" is enough to miss a ball. It's not about being smart.
About the "after rack" checking. You're right. At that point the scorekeepers go through the rack, at least what they can remember. Then they go to the players for what they remember. My point there is, the action took place in the last 15 minutes and should be easier to recount.
Oh, and about asking the player what ball they made.......hmmmm. I could tell you some stories...... As you probably know, some players can become defensive/annoyed about their game, and the chatter that goes along with it. Personally, I will try everything and anything before interrupting my player about what happened. Before you say "your player should blah blah blah", we are all human, we all make mistakes, and we all have lives outside of the pool hall/bar. So, as a last resort, i'll ask the player. I find that when you and the other scorekeeper begin to sort it out (after stoping the game). Other players watching will help with the pieces. I have to say (Phil and Taz, please don't judge) that I have only had to "flip a coin" to deturmine where the point will go, a handful of times in my 16 years in the APA.
So, i guess i'm saying. I still don't see the benefit from implementing this change. Mistakes will still happen. "Was that the 3 or the 7", "was that the 8 or the 4 or the 6", "was that the 9 or the 1", 'was that the 1 or the 5", "my player made the 3", "no, my player did"
I'm just not sold yet.
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movistar
193 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2010 : 4:32:13 PM
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wow... just the fact that Phil thinks I have an interesting idea... just makes me tingly all over...lol
actually. there is some "fine tuning " that would have to be done but I do see it as do-able.. and Steve... you are right the score keepers need to sit together and WATCH the game... however.. the down side is "people might start talking"...lol.....Jinny... u are right most problems don't happen very often... but it only takes a sec to look in the ball rack and see what the LAST ball was or look on the table and see what balls are still there...a scorekeeper wouldn't even have to ASK what ball went in just look... see what balls are on the table and what is the last ball in the ball rack..... nice and quiet
most players take so MUCH time between shots there should not be a "HURRY" issue
since ONLY one 8 or 9 skill level could play, maybe a small space on the back could be used for their game and maybe some of the "INtroductory STUFF at the top of the page could be minimized... of gotten rid of.. just a thought...
thanks for everybody's input......next ? |
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2010 : 7:41:57 PM
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Actually, if the tally areas were "detached" from the matches and grouped together (say at the bottom), then the unused games from some matches might make up for the extra ones needed for the longer races. Then you might not need any additional "game" tallies. The down side of this approach would be that you'd have to have a way to tell where one match ends and the next one begins, and it would be much more difficult to tell at a glance where you are in a match (how many more points are needed by each player).
Of course, there's still the case where the scorekeeper is marking points for the wrong player. The likelihood of that probably increases if the tally areas are not "attached" to the rest of the match.
Phil
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Keith
USA
242 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2010 : 09:27:54 AM
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It seems that the problem is that the scorekeepers aren't paying attention. In your system everything is fine if they pay attention and it seems that there wont be enough space. It would also be a little more difficult to tell when the match is over and would cause some matches to be delayed while people do the math. In the system we have now you can get by with counting from a number that is close to the one marked. Only leaving the paying attention part. If people don't pay attention now what makes you think they will pay attention if it is harder to keep score. You won't be able to force the scorekeepers to sit together but it would help.
I have an idea that might get rid of some confusion. Sometimes people kinda zone out while keeping score. This can make it so they see the 19 and automatically think its the mark for 20. This causes some confusion when the scorekeepers touch base and is easily fixed most times. I think it would help to keep the ending numbers bold for each skill level. Just instead of making the 15,20,30,40,45 spaces dots make them small numbers. This might cut out a little frustration between scorekeepers when they are trying to figure out who is wrong only to find out that someone is just a little tired.
Insert inspirational sentence here. |
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2010 : 4:52:09 PM
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Or you could get nine poker chips and number them one through nine. Put them together at the beginning of each rack and move each chip into one of three piles (one pile for each player and one for dead balls) while the rack is being played. At the end of the rack, count the chips in each player's pile and mark that many points on the scoresheet (OK, two 9-Ball chips).
This way, you don't have to mark the points on the scoresheet at all until the end of the rack, and if there's a discrepancy you can check your piles.
Phil
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9 ball score sheets
