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Showtime
USA
73 Posts |
 Posted - 02/24/2011 : 10:03:35 AM
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What is the reason we don't have the option to use a push out after the break?
If I disagree with you, it is because I am right. |
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movistar
193 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2011 : 11:38:30 AM
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I assume you are talking about 9 ball... I agree ...there should be a push out allowed... why should a player be penalized (dis-advantaged) because a player breaks, doesn't make anything and gets a LUCKY hook on the 1 ball or makes a ball and hooks himself on the next ball.... a push would NOT really affect the play... it would just prevent a player from getting ball in hand on the first shot and possibly wining or losing the game because of a lucky or un-lucky break ...
back to your question.. the only reason I can think of is that the APA really isn't a fan of making changes to their rules.
there is another organization that allows a push shot after the break but the APA usually doesn't want to do anything that the other league does |
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Taz
USA
555 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2011 : 5:26:17 PM
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Showtime, please refer to page 96 of the Official Team Manul.
96. PUSH-OUT: The Push-out was developed to take some of the luck out of pool. A player could protect his turn with a push-out. Although push-outs have been used more often in the past, currently, push-outs can only be used immediately after the break by the breaker if he pocketed a ball on the break, or by the incoming player if no balls were pocketed on the break. A player can elect to push-out if he doesn't like the shot he is faced with. Pushing-out involves announcing teh intent to push-out, and then shooting the cue ball to a new position. The shooter doesn't need to satisfy the "legal shot" rule (driving a ball to a rail after a legal hit).
The shooter's opponent then has the option to shoot from the new position or tell the shooter to take the shot. Normal game rules apply from that point on. Push-outs are fairly standard in pro events and in the APA Masters format and the U.S. Amateur (conducted by the APA); however, APA rules for all handicapped competition does not allow push-outs because they give the more highly skilled player a big advantage for obvious reasons.
It has NOTHING to do with "APA really isn't a fan of making changes to their rules" since, as noted above, APA does allow a push-out in APA Masters and US Amateur. They just don't allow it in handicapped league play, for the reason stated above. It also has nothing to do with "APA usually doesn't want to do anything that the other league does". That statement is totally ridiculous since APA leagues have been around long before any other national handicapped leagues.
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Torsten
USA
401 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2011 : 6:53:17 PM
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In regards to the APA not being a fan of changing their rules, why should they be? The rules in place currently have created a fun and fair environment for people to play amateur pool.
The playing field has to remain as level as possible to make it fair for the lower ranked players, otherwise a lot of them would get discouraged and quit.
Since I joined the league seven or eight years ago, the APA has introduced several new things including a tournament of champions and new top shooter format.
But changing things just for the sake of change is not productive. And allowing pushouts massively favors the high player in a high SL vs. lower SL match.
I think the worst time to have a heart attack would be during a game of charades... or during a game of fake heart attack. |
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Keith
USA
242 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2011 : 03:22:19 AM
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Torsten,
We were talking about the difference of handicap potency in 8 and 9 ball. We both stated our opinions but seemed to agree on one thing. The handicap in 8 ball is much easier for the higher player to overcome than the handicap in 9 ball. If we were allowed to push in 9 ball I think that would be the nudge to evening them up.
Just so everyone knows. I think the handicap in 8 ball favors the higher skilled player by a little bit. But the handicap in 9 ball favors the lower skilled player providing a good coach is available.
Remember the person you have to impress the most is the one you sleep with every night. |
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2011 : 11:00:06 PM
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APA's philosophy on the rules is really quite simple. Whenever possible, make sure the rules favor nobody. When that's not possible, choose the version that favors the weaker players.
For example, APA is changing the race chart in the 9-Ball Doubles pre-registered event this year. The previous race chart favored low-total teams (two 3's, for instance). The new chart should even it out so there's no advantage on either end of the scale.
As another example, consider the choice whether to allow luck shots or not in 8-Ball. You either allow them, which favors the beginners, or you don't, which favors the advanced players.
The same is true for the push out. In a match between a beginner and an advanced player, the push out would give the advanced player a huge advantage. First, they break more often. Second, the beginners are less likely to pocket a ball when they do break. Combine those, and the opportunity to push out will come up way more often for the advanced player, who also happens to be much better at choosing and executing a push out. This is why we don't allow it in the handicapped league.
Phil
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Torsten
USA
401 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2011 : 4:21:50 PM
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Keith, I never feel at a disadvantage when I'm playing a SL2, for example, as a lower player. Sure, they need significantly fewer points, but as I higher ranked player, I should be able to play enough defenses that they can't successfully get out of. If you and I play and I lock you up, I plan on you making legal contact because that is what's expected of higher ranked players. If I lock up a 2 with a good D, I'm expecting a ball in hand and I generally get it. If I get a ball in hand, I should be able finish most, if not all of the table, as should you.
I think the worst time to have a heart attack would be during a game of charades... or during a game of fake heart attack. |
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movistar
193 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2011 : 7:32:29 PM
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why do people assume that these discussions are about a higher skill level versus a lower skill level? when they argue that it would benefit either player MANY of the times they are equal skill levels 2 v 2 / 3 v 3 etc
in my posts , I have never suggested changes that FAVOR any player... just suggestions that make it a LEVEL playing field for everyone.
.............Keith, I totally agree with you.
Thorsten.... i believe that allowing a push would benefit the LOWER player MORE than a higher player because if a shooter is hooked on the shot after the break, a higher level is more apt to kick or two or three rail and get out of the situation without giving up BIH however a lower skill usually fouls and gives ball in hand. and it is not about "locking " a player up DURING the game it is a discussion about the pros and cons of the PUSH SHOT
Taz...if these rules are used in Higher level play, maybe it would be a good idea to TEACH the beginners these rules NOW so they will be ready when they are pros
the introduction of the Tournament of Champions or change in Top Shooter Format , is nice but has NOTHING to do with rules changes that determine how a match is played
these are my opinions and I respect YOURS> |
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Showtime
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2011 : 7:46:46 PM
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Thank you for the responses.
It seems to me that the advantage by a higher skill level player can be neutralized by not playing a lower SL player against them. It just requires more strategy or thought when putting your players up.
If a low SL player did play a higher SL and lost, it would just keep the low SL lower longer, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. In turn, I think the advantage swings to the low SL overtime. This handicapped game always comes down to is the player strong, weak, or in the middle of their SL, the same for the opponent, and how they match up. The only limits are, that you can't be worse than a 1 nor can you be better than a 9.
Thank you for the information.
If I disagree with you, it is because I am right. |
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2011 : 09:51:56 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by movistar[/i]
[br]why do people assume that these discussions are about a higher skill level versus a lower skill level? when they argue that it would benefit either player MANY of the times they are equal skill levels 2 v 2 / 3 v 3 etc
in my posts , I have never suggested changes that FAVOR any player... just suggestions that make it a LEVEL playing field for everyone.
.............Keith, I totally agree with you.
Thorsten.... i believe that allowing a push would benefit the LOWER player MORE than a higher player because if a shooter is hooked on the shot after the break, a higher level is more apt to kick or two or three rail and get out of the situation without giving up BIH however a lower skill usually fouls and gives ball in hand. and it is not about "locking " a player up DURING the game it is a discussion about the pros and cons of the PUSH SHOT
Taz...if these rules are used in Higher level play, maybe it would be a good idea to TEACH the beginners these rules NOW so they will be ready when they are pros
the introduction of the Tournament of Champions or change in Top Shooter Format , is nice but has NOTHING to do with rules changes that determine how a match is played
these are my opinions and I respect YOURS>
First, don't confuse the terms. You didn't confuse me, I know what you meant to say, but I'm sure there are many people who read your post and now think they can shoot a push shot at the South Coast Championships. It's push OUT and it's not higher level play, it's the Masters and US Amateur formats.
Second, why don't you teach the beginners everything they need to know about being an 8, so they can be an 8 next week? Simple answer, because it takes a LONG TIME to learn all of that stuff, and until then, yes, they will be disadvantaged against higher-skilled players. That's ok, they have a handicap. But when the only chance a 1 or a 2 has against a 9 is when the 9 makes a ball on the break and has to kick at the 1, I don't feel much like giving the 9 an escape route. It doesn't much matter whether the 1 gets to push out. I can think of only three possibilities in that situation:
1) The 1 pushes badly and the 9 runs out
2) The 1 pushes ok, the 9 makes the 1 shoot again, then the 9 runs out
3) The 1 pushes well, the 9 plays a safety, gets ball in hand, and runs out
That's all I can think of. Did I miss a scenario where the 9 doesn't run out?
When equal or nearly equal skill levels play, allowing the push out or not doesn't make much difference. When you have a league where all the matches are equal or nearly equal skill levels, you can allow the push out.
Phil
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Taz
USA
555 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2011 : 10:15:38 AM
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| You are confused...NO, these rules are NOT used in Higher Level Play. They are used in the two non-handicapped formats the APA offers. |
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Torsten
USA
401 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 7:11:29 PM
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Movistar, I feel ya. I'm not in love with playing low SL players. But some teams only have lower ranked players. Sometimes it's not avoidable. I don't know of too many higher ranked players who go into the night looking to play a low player.
That said, in the described situation of having to kick at a ball (low SL) they can get coaching from someone on their team. Doesn't always work, but hey. Not everything I try works either.
We shouldn't lose sight of the fact that we are supposed to be having fun.
I think the worst time to have a heart attack would be during a game of charades... or during a game of fake heart attack. |
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n/a
16 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2011 : 01:35:21 AM
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If we are intimidated by playing a low sl level player in either 8 or 9 ball it proves that we SHOULD be playing in a handicapped league. If we were not, we would be playing in a non-handicapped league (because we would be good) and not worried about losing to a sl 2 or 3. If we are playing in the handicapped league its probably because we are not top level pro-material. And instead of constantly complaining, we should be happy we have it and either accept it for what it is or take our cue and go home.
think before shooting, then shoot someone thinking. |
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Moose Dragon
USA
128 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2011 : 08:34:51 AM
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Hammer meet head, you nailed that one Mo2cross. I may not like playing a 2 or 3 because of the points differance, but I take it as a challenge of my physical, mental, and safety game. The players that scare me the most are the 4s and 5s. They have the ability to run balls and kick out of defenses.
These are the opinons of this poster and are not necessarily shared by me or anyone else. |
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Torsten
USA
401 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2011 : 10:31:49 AM
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Ain't that the truth, Kerry. 7 against 4 in 8 ball is my personal least favorite. One decent runout and an 8 ball on the snap and I'm going home with my tail between my legs.
Mo2cross, I agree. My favorite part of this league is that my girlfriend plays on my team two nights a week. While she is a solid and competitive player, she's not at the level of the 7s and wouldn't enjoy playing in a league where she'd have to take on those players without getting a little weight.
I think the worst time to have a heart attack would be during a game of charades... or during a game of fake heart attack. |
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Push Outs
