| Author |
 Topic  |
|
poolguy
USA
54 Posts |
 Posted - 04/12/2008 : 1:05:58 PM
|
If a player is shooting the 8-ball, and it is clearly his/her intention of making the ball in a specific pocket, and the pocket is not marked, a strict interpretation of the rules makes this loss of game. As the opponent, I would first remind the shooter to mark the pocket, and if the shooter took the shot before I had a chance to do so I would politely remind them to mark the pocket next time. But I would never take the win by invoking that rule.
And before someone asks for a definition of "clearly" and "specific pocket", I think we all know when a shot is intended for a specific pocket or not.
To me, the "spirit of the rules" is to have your opponent beat you fair and square, not by invoking a rule which penalizes the shooter for forgetting something as mundane as putting a marker on the target pocket.
John
It only hurts if you miss. |
|
|
Rick
65 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2008 : 3:46:32 PM
|
You're absolutely right that it is in the spirit of the game either to remind the player to mark the pocket , or accept that they were in fact aiming for the pocket even though it wasn't marked . However , I have been in two seperaate situations that my opponent and his team were so offensive , rude and unsportsmanlike that when they did screw up and not mark their pocket , I was more than happy to take the game .
I know your answer is " report them to the LO " however that just opens up another can of worms and really doesn't do anything for me on the night . Certainly I think that if you get bumped accidently ( your other post ) then we as players should show common sense , but as far as marking the pocket , no . Lets say during a match in game 1 your opponent doesn't mark his pocket , it's obvious what he/she is going for and you say it's OK . Game 3 the same easy shot , he/she doesn't mark the pocket , your watching and your opponent mis cues , sends the 8 ball around the table and into a different pocket .You cry foul , your opponent says , "I was aiming for there ,you let it go last time", now it's your word against theirs and arguments start . Your opponent is an arse no doubt , guess what , there are one or two in the APA. |
 |
|
|
Kerry Randolph
USA
172 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2008 : 4:24:42 PM
|
I do not know if giving a win to someone when they have not marked a pocket is within the spirit of the rules, because the rule is there for a very good reason. I do believe it is in the spirit of the game and good sportsmanship. I have played in the APA for a couple of years now, and have had probably a dozen chances to take a victory from a player that didn't mark their pocket. I have taken those victories exactly 0 times. There were two teams in my league that have taken a victory from us in this fashion. Both from the same player. Those were the only teams I would take a win from this way. Fortunately one team is gone and the other team is off my *#$ list.
I have found that most unmarked pockets are not the difficult shots that takes some thinking or examining but the easy obvious shots that only go in one pocket, so that makes it easy to give the win to the rightfull player. Watch the game and make sure your player and their opponent marks the pocket.
It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt |
|
|
|
Rick
65 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2008 : 5:38:42 PM
|
| Kerry , I think you've brought the most salient point , " watch the game " someone , the coach , the players , the rest of team , should be watching . I saw a game the other night , where the shooter accidentally knocked the white ball , she didn't realise nor did her coach or any other of the up to 14 players there . I couldn't say anything as I was on neither team , and it was almost a match winning situation . |
|
|
|
Harley
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2008 : 12:49:02 PM
|
I had the same situation last Monday. Except I was the one who forgot to mark the pocket. Fortunatly we were playing a great team who were not sticklers for that particular rule. (Thanks Torsten).
But you have to be carful. There are some teams out there that would call you on it in a heart beat. So don't make it a habit not to mark pockets. |
|
|
|
MGB
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2008 : 3:39:07 PM
|
I lost a match, last Monday. I was in a hill/hill game, and I was on the 8 ball, while my oponent had 2 balls left on the table. I was lining up my shot on the 8 and since I didn't have a decent chance of making the ball, I was about to do a defensive shot. Although I didn't ask for a timeout, my captain insisted on one. He came over to instruct me on how to do the "D" shot, took my cue and inadvertantly made contact with the cue ball. He just slightly tapped the top of the ball and didn't move the cue ball or improve it's position. Yet, the opposing team called the foul, got ball in hand and won the game/match.
I realize the rule, but is that the spirit of the rule? |
|
|
|
poolguy
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2008 : 3:57:48 PM
|
MGB,
This is really a "different spirit" than marking the 8-ball.
I think what happened is unfortunate, but it was truly a foul.
In a match I had last week (I'm a 6 and I was playing a very, very good 3) my opponent was shooting. On one of his practice strokes he every so slightly touched the cue ball and moved it about a 32nd of an inch. He must be in his late 70s and I stopped him. He didn't realize he'd done it. His teammates weren't watching so it was his word against mine. He graciously gave me cue ball in hand, taking my word that he touched it. I don't think the spirit of the rule is to forgive "slight" fouls. His was unfortunate, as was the foul your captain made. But they were both clearly fouls.
John
It only hurts if you miss. |
|
|
|
Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2008 : 10:54:11 PM
|
quote:
[i]Originally posted by poolguy[/i]
[br]MGB,
This is really a "different spirit" than marking the 8-ball.
I think what happened is unfortunate, but it was truly a foul.
In a match I had last week (I'm a 6 and I was playing a very, very good 3) my opponent was shooting. On one of his practice strokes he every so slightly touched the cue ball and moved it about a 32nd of an inch. He must be in his late 70s and I stopped him. He didn't realize he'd done it. His teammates weren't watching so it was his word against mine. He graciously gave me cue ball in hand, taking my word that he touched it. I don't think the spirit of the rule is to forgive "slight" fouls. His was unfortunate, as was the foul your captain made. But they were both clearly fouls.
John
It only hurts if you miss.
John makes an important distinction here. To play within the spirit of the rules you should understand why a particular rule exists. The pocket marking rule is there for one reason only - to avoid arguments. Therefore, if you know which pocket was the intended pocket, the spirit of the rules dictates that you concede the victory whether the pocket was marked or not. If you make the decision based on who your opponent is, you are not playing within the spirit of the rules.
On the other hand, the rule about cue ball fouls is not a rule put in place simply to avoid arguments. If you start trying to decide which fouls are "legitimate" and which can be ignored, you will find yourself in a gray area where, over time, your judgment will not be consistent. For this reason, calling all cue ball fouls, regardless of how slight they may be, is perfectly acceptable and is within the spirit of the rules.
Now, that being said, you are taking a risk if you EXPECT your opponent to play within the spirit of the rules. The degree of risk depends on the opponent, but there is a risk because we cannot force them to do so. We can only urge them to do so, and if they don't we can remember that. To protect yourself, you should make sure your t's are crossed, your i's are dotted, and your pockets are marked.
Phil
|
|
|
|
iampato
USA
71 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 3:20:35 PM
|
There have been numerous times when our opponent have "inadvertently" touched the cue ball, while addressing a shot, which "by the book" would be considered a foul. I have without exception have instructed the player to re-spot the ball where it was, and continue their shot. Sometimes the player refuses to take the shot and offers my player ball-in-hand, I respect that.
FIRST and foremost I play this for FUN!!! I have help the other team with timeouts. which has caused my team to lose that game. The enjoyment I get out of that is that someone learned something. I have continuously told my teammates, this is the way my teams play.
If someone forgets to mark a pocket we tell them it is ok to just call it. If we don't tell them soon enough and they shoot anyway and make the 8-ball. We clap and say "good shot", and my shooter racks the balls. There is NO discussion about not marking the pocket. If the opponent says the ball is frozen, I say "Ok". I very rarely look to see for myself. I BELIEVE THEM!! I will stop playing pool before I will ever take it that serious.
I play to win, ALWAYS. But, so what if I don't. I do not plan on playing in the US Open any time soon. Anytime I play in local leagues, playoff's, Regionals, Single's, MVP's, my first priority is to enjoy myself. Second I wish to have a good time with my opponent.
I'm begging you people, stop taking this too serious. I will say it again. If you play like your opponent is a friend like most of us are, and show them the respect, trust, and HONOR that friends deserve. It will eliminate 99% of these discussions.
you know, you would think I would get tired of hearing, "you're right Bernardo" but I don't. LOL. |
|
|
|
MGB
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 4:58:50 PM
|
quote:
[i]Originally posted by poolguy[/i]
[br]MGB,
This is really a "different spirit" than marking the 8-ball.
I think what happened is unfortunate, but it was truly a foul.
In a match I had last week (I'm a 6 and I was playing a very, very good 3) my opponent was shooting. On one of his practice strokes he every so slightly touched the cue ball and moved it about a 32nd of an inch. He must be in his late 70s and I stopped him. He didn't realize he'd done it. His teammates weren't watching so it was his word against mine. He graciously gave me cue ball in hand, taking my word that he touched it. I don't think the spirit of the rule is to forgive "slight" fouls. His was unfortunate, as was the foul your captain made. But they were both clearly fouls.
John
It only hurts if you miss.
You say it is "truly a foul", yes and I recognize this. Yet, I have to believe when this rule was created, it was done so in the spirit of not allowing one player to recieve an unfair advantage over the other. So, in my case, was a rule broken, yes. By my coach accidently making slight contact with the cue ball and not moving it, adventageously in anyway, was the "spirit of the rule" broken?
|
|
|
|
poolguy
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2008 : 5:34:01 PM
|
MGB,
We're totally off subject of this thread, which is marking the 8-ball. But I'm going to respond to your post about the cue ball foul.
Here's a quote from Phil's post on this subject (cue ball foul):
"On the other hand, the rule about cue ball fouls is not a rule put in place simply to avoid arguments. If you start trying to decide which fouls are "legitimate" and which can be ignored, you will find yourself in a gray area where, over time, your judgment will not be consistent. For this reason, calling all cue ball fouls, regardless of how slight they may be, is perfectly acceptable and is within the spirit of the rules."
I think that answers it all. A cue ball foul is a cue ball foul. Your coach had no business putting the cue or the cue tip anywhere near the cue ball, which is always live. You suffered the consequences, which is terribly unfortunate.
Phil's point about grey areas is a good one. Let's say you whiffed a shot (ever see anyone do that? I have, lots of time) and you ever so slightly touch the cue ball as you do so. No different than the coach touching it. You'd probably agree that this one is truly a foul. If not, how much of a foul is truly a foul? There is no spirit to this part of the rules. You, as the shooter, are responsible for any action which you are involved in which is a cue ball foul.
Note my other post in this forum (spirit of the rules) in which I point out that a player who is bumped, and who hits the cue ball because of the inadvertent bump, is technically guilty of a foul ... but the spirit would (or should) cause the opponent to replace the cue ball and let the shooter continue. That's not the same as having you or your coach directly cause a cue ball foul and not have it count as a foul.
John
It only hurts if you miss. |
|
|
|
iampato
USA
71 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2008 : 2:44:46 PM
|
Quotes from the rule book.
"11. How to Win - A player has won the game when all the balls of his numerical group have been pocketed and he has legally pocketed the 8-ball in a properly marked pocket without scratching. To properly mark the pocket, a coaster or some other reasonable object (to avoid confusion, we do not recommend marking the pocket with chalk), must be placed next to the pocket the 8-ball is intended to enter. Both teams may use the same marker. Only one marker should be on the table. If the marker is already at the intended pocket from a previous attempt or game, it is not necessary for the shooter to touch it, pick it up or reposition it."
Here is another qoute from the rule book Section 5 Fouls:
"Even after having addressed the cue ball, a player may, if not satisfied with the placement, make further adjustments with the hand, cue stick or any other reasonable piece of equipment. A foul may be called only if the player fouls while actually stroking the cue ball,
meaning a double hit of the cue ball"
So even if ANYONE touches the cue ball while in posession of a "Ball-in-Hand" and accidently touches the cue ball it is NOT A FOUL!!! Read the rule book people. All the answers are in there!!
you know, you would think I would get tired of hearing, "you're right Bernardo" but I don't. LOL. |
|
|
|
poolguy
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2008 : 2:55:08 PM
|
Bernardo,
The guy who complained that his captain fouled the cue ball was *not* talking about a situation where he had cue ball in hand.
The rule you mention deals with cue ball in hand. In that situation, it's my understanding that the coach can actually take the cue ball and stroke it ... and hit it ... to show the player how much speed to put on the ball.
This is getting way off topic. The subject here is marking the 8-ball, and we've heard from Phil. I'll quote him and say that this horse is officially dead now.
John
It only hurts if you miss. |
|
|
|
Torsten
USA
401 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2008 : 3:39:28 PM
|
Whether it's in the spirit of the rules or not, mark your darn pockets on the black!!! When you get to regionals, nationals, southcoast challenge, basically ANY HLT, you'll be required to mark your pocket. It's a good habit to get into.
Sure, if I'm playing against an experienced player whom I know, and they ask me if they can just point, fine. Doesn't bother me a bit. But the agonizing thing about this rule, every time someone brings it up, is that it is the most easily avoidable thing. It takes maybe two seconds to reach into your pocket, pull out a pack of smokes, a wallet, some keys, a pencil, your taz buck, whatever and mark your intended pocket.
I have a player who brings a differenct matchbox car every Tuesday night because he thinks it's fun to "have a little variety in your pocket markers." I usually roll my eyes and groan at the sheer vacancy of such a concept but hey. I have another player who uses a litte clifford (the red cartoon dog) stuffed animal as her marker. She dutifully goes to her case and removes Clifford every time she's on the black. And then she yells at me if Clifford isn't promptly replaced after the shot because "it's his home!" Oh yeah, and Clifford must be watching the pocket he's marking. Because if it's his butt facing the pocket, the ball won't roll to him, kind of like some ass-backward game of fetch. One of our esteemed opponents from last night brought his own, hand-carved pocket marker, that he made in the shop room at his work. (clearly he has an easy job).
Bottom line people. MARK YOUR POCKETS OR AGREE WITH YOUR OPPONENT BEFORE YOU SHOOT THAT POINTING OR GESTURING TO A POCKET WILL BE SUFFICIENT.
I think the worst time to have a heart attack would be during a game of charades... or during a game of fake heart attack. |
|
|
|
Harley
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2008 : 4:05:43 PM
|
Bernardo,
If you read the post it says nothing about the person shooting the 8 ball had ball in hand. It just states that he was lining up on the 8 ball and the coach call the time out and inadvertantly hit the cue ball. |
|
|
|
iampato
USA
71 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2008 : 10:38:30 AM
|
I read it right. and what I am saying if that situation happened and I was the opposing captian. I would have suggested the player respot the ball and continue their shot. it was an accident. When I am playing with friends and that happens out of league I do the same thing. my team getting a ball in hand more or less one time is NOT IMPORTANT! If it was your child that did that would you take ball in hand on your own child?
you know, you would think I would get tired of hearing, "you're right Bernardo" but I don't. LOL. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Marking the 8-ball ... or not
