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Calcwby4u
USA
89 Posts |
 Posted - 08/29/2009 : 1:10:50 PM
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| If you want to use other Leagues and Organizations as examples, I agree that IT IS A FOUL. But in APA IT IS NOT. Your example of breaking from halfway down the table is a little over the top and exagerating the initial post don't you think. I don't think anyone player in their right mind would even attempt what your suggesting. If you don't like the rule and think it should be changed, lobby to change it. Take it to Nationals. I'm sure that Phil & Taz would be open to helping you make the proposal and how to go about doing it. Until such time as the rule changes, all the rants and ravings are a waste of time and energy. There are a lot of rules within APA that differ quite drastically from USPPA, BCA, ACS and any other Organization that you can come up with, but you have to play within them or ????. I know a lot of people that didn't like them and moved on. I know a lot of people that don't like them but play within them and have a fun time. I try. Just seems to be a lot of nit picking going on in some of these posts. Deal with it. |
Edited by - Calcwby4u on 08/29/2009 1:15:49 PM |
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2009 : 11:20:36 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by movistar[/i]
[br]C...by4u....so...if a foul doesn't occur til the rack is struck, a player COULD place the cue ball half way down the table and break from there, and it wouldn't be a foul ????? even thou the RULES state that the cue ball must be placed BEHIND the headstring...seems like the rules NEED to be changed to cover a foul if a player breaks PAST the headstring!!!!
common sense should state that a break shot begins the moment the cue tip touches the cue ball NOT when the ball touches the rack !!!
That's funny - a reference to "common sense" from someone who begins his argument by suggesting a nonsensical scenario.
Many of our rules are in place to accommodate beginners. Beginners sometimes have trouble just shooting the cue ball into the rack. We aren't going to penalize them until they at least do that.
Phil
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Christian_X
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2009 : 1:40:14 PM
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Double-hitting is OK from behind the headstring. The first strike would be considered the same as moving/positioning the ball with the hand or cuetip.
If the 2nd strike occurs past the headstring, then the actual break occurred from in front of the headstring, at which point it becomes an illegal break.
Small minds seek to judge, as if they know more; great minds see to understand, so that they will. |
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movistar
193 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2009 : 2:13:03 PM
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hey Christian X...glad to see somebody agrees with me...
any other time during a game, a "double hit" is a foul. "whiffing" a shot(not hitting the cue ball when we stroke( we have all done this)
is not a foul )...foul doesn't occur till we make contact with the ball a beginner makes a double hit during the game and they commit a foul.. why is it NOT a foul on the break ???? the break is PART of the game. are BEGINNERS also called SLOW learners.. if you do it ONCE.. they should know better the next time they break !!!! |
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badactionpool
USA
38 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2009 : 12:34:01 AM
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movistar please say who you are so when i play your team if i do i can call your 2 on a double hit. instead of trying to teach them and explaining it to them to make the league fun you are the reason i dont like some of the teams. a 1,2,3 should be explained the foul and if it happens it happens let them play. if you call someone to watch it thats different. movistar let me know anytime you want to play i am available.
Matt Munowitch AKA. Mr. Bad Action AKA Capt. Lush |
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SFVMark
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2009 : 10:25:39 AM
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| Movistar, I am not sure Christian_X is in agreement with you. You want it to be a foul. I don't think a foul can occur on an illegal break. |
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Melissa Herndon
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2009 : 10:49:41 AM
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You should get clarification on this by whoever wrote the rules...because the rule does state that you have to break from behind the headstring for the break to be considered legal.
In the professional arena, our rules also dictate that we have to break from behind the headstring. So, if a player bumps the cue ball over the line, and then continues to break...it is a foul...resulting in ball-in hand for the opposite player.
I realize that APA rules and pro rules are not always the same...but given that you have to break from behind the headstring in both sets of rules...I think that a valid argument can be made that it could be considered a foul in the APA since it is a foul in the pro rules.
Just figured I'd throw my 2 cents in...to muddy the waters even more ;)
Melissa
WPBA Professional Player |
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movistar
193 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2009 : 3:12:59 PM
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dear mr B Action Pool...how hard is it to teach a 1,2, or 3 what a double hit is.... if they already know that hitting the cue twice on a shot DURING a game, is a foul.... a shot on the break is the same thing..... a "double hit" is a "double hit"
not throwing dirt on all the 1,2,3... I have seen a lot of higher skill players do the same thing including myself..... and IF I did it, I would have no objection to it being a foul if the APA makes it a rule.
Dear Phil.... by my suggestion of breaking from the middle of the table, I was merely trying to over imphasize the fact that "past the head string or a double hit should be a foul
if any 1,2,3 etc need a lesson on breaking... give me a shout... have a great week....
SFV Mark... sounds like your use of the phrase " Illegal break" should mean something... the word I L L E G A L
Ms Melissa... thanks for your 2 cents....anytime
just a note.. If we, as players don't "discuss" topics like this.... there will never be any changes or improvements in a league that is already good, but could get better with a few changes |
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Moose Dragon
USA
128 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2009 : 3:47:47 PM
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Moviestar, you are considering this to be a double hit. I believe a double hit involves the tip of the cue hitting the cue ball than the cue ball hitting the object ball than the tip of the cue hitting the cue ball again. This happens when the cue ball and object ball are very close. Moving the cue ball with the tip of the stick (which is all that is happening)during the break is an entirely differant action. Although I agree it could be considered a foul, I do not believe it gives the shooter any advantage at all. It should make the break more inconsistent, and make it more difficult to make solid contact with the cue ball and the rack. As far as I am concerned I don't care if you juggle the cue ball while breaking as long as you break from behind the head string.
It is not difficult to explain what a double hit is to anybody, it is all the differant scenarios and ways to shoot out of the situation that takes time to understand. |
Edited by - Moose Dragon on 10/09/2009 3:49:50 PM |
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movistar
193 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2009 : 07:59:47 AM
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mr Dragon... moving the cue ball with the tip, to position it , is different that hitting it with a stroke, and having the double hit scenario in shooting a ball that is very close to the cueball is DIFFERENT than the break shot... a double hit is very simple.... hitting the cueball with the tip TWICE on the same shot is a DOUBLE HIT and should be a foul ANYTIME during the game...have a great day and shoot well. and thanks for your input
ps.. I am going to start practicing my juggling act
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Moose Dragon
USA
128 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2009 : 08:15:50 AM
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Senior Star,
I believe the differance between the two shots is that during the game the cue ball is live. If you were to bump it forward that is a foul. Even if you bump it and then stroke your shot it is still a cue ball foul not a double hit. Otherwise we would have to watch each shot to keep some people from bumping the cue ball into a better position then stroking real quick. If it is considered a double hit then you could not call it without a third party watching.
This topic is actually a scenario that will rarely happen. I have only seen it once at singles regionals and the person was doing it as part of his natural break.
When you are ready I give instructions on juggling. |
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iampato
USA
71 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2009 : 03:55:42 AM
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there is one rule that makes this whole conversation null and void. Shooters call. unless there is a third party watching the shot, it is the shooters call if it was a foul.
I will take the person outside that calls a third party to watch a break.
When all else fails... Get your butt up, your chin will follow. |
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movistar
193 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2009 : 09:05:57 AM
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mr iampato... a third party is usually called to watch when there is a possibility of a CLOSE call when two or more balls are close together. MANY times fouls are called by players who are seated but have a very good view of the table and can see the shot was an obvious foul without standing over the table to watch. It is up to the shooter to be "honest" about their shot and admit to a foul.
therefor a third party is NOT needed on the break.... the cueball doesn't have to bounce back and hit the cuetip twice to be a double hit.... if you hit the cue ball twice on the same shot.."THAT is the double hit. thanks for your input and opinion..have a great day and shoot well.
if all the objections to having double hitting the cueball on the break called a foul are considered valid ... than think about this.
A legal break according to the apa rules require you to 1. pocket a ball, 2. drive 4 or more balls to a rail, and 3. break from behind the LINE. all of this to be considered a LEGAL break. If you double hit and end up breaking from beyond the line, and make 3 balls and possibly the 8 ball, for a win... the balls should be re racked again and re broken, but according to the controversial rules it is NOT a foul but it should be considered an illegal break and a do over! most teams just KEEP ON SHOOTING !
ps... if you take somebody outside that calls a third party to watch a break... IS THAT A TIMEOUT ???? |
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iampato
USA
71 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2009 : 09:22:19 AM
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Mr. Moviestar, I now see you do not wish to have other people make sense to you... You wish for other people to see you are right. so much so, you have to explain to me again a rule you have little grasp of understanding.
To get a grasp you must hold more than one hair.
there are rules thru-out the rule book that give a "Blanket" ruling and there are others that "pin point." Sorry you are trying to pin point on a blanket.
i have choosen to play my game, with my team, with-in the confines of the rulebook. The rulebook is your friend. it is not the enemy. It is when I understood the rules that others understood me.
I am not always right, I have been proven wrong several times, What makes the difference is that I listen to the people and friends telling me different. if you don't beleive me, go see my post "Appology"
Swallow your pride and move on. there are more important things out there then calling a foul on a break.
There are my $.02.
When all else fails... Get your butt up, your chin will follow. |
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Moose Dragon
USA
128 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2009 : 08:45:31 AM
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Mr. Iampato
I am sorry I am confused about a few things.
Who's hair am I supposed to hold to get that grasp?
Blanket? there are no blankets in pool!!
It is good you have chosen to play your game with your team, otherwise you would be alone right?
You must not have "understood the rules" when you played on my team, because I didn't understand anything you said.
"I am not always right, I have been proven wrong several times." Shouldn't this read: I am not always wrong I have proven myself right several times?
What are the things that are more important than calling a foul on a break?
If you take that person outside what is it you are going to be doing?
Now Mr. Iampato don't get mad, I am just people or friend telling you different. |
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Topic |
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Double Clutch on the break?
