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Taz
USA
555 Posts |
 Posted - 06/08/2005 : 07:55:44 AM
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I like to point out something that seems to be lacking or missing (Page 2 Official APA Team Manual)
"Relax, enjoy yourself and play within the Spirit of the Rules as well as the written rule......Common sense must prevail. Teams that try to gain advantage by creating their own interpretations are subject to sportsmanship violations. Win at the table not from the chair...That's what this League is about." |
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Kerry Randolph
USA
172 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2005 : 10:56:53 AM
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I could not agree more. trying to gain advantage by intimidating or by being obnoxious may not be against the rules but it is morally wrong and poor sportmanship.
Also cheering for you player is great, but everyone should keep in mind that your player has an opponent. excessive cheering, rooting, hooting and hollering can seem to your opponent that it is directed at them to try and throw them of their game. I will say I experienced this at the regional tournament this last weekend. It did not bother me but it could others. Just something to keep in mind while you play.
Kerry |
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abales
4 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2005 : 8:42:09 PM
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First of all, if we are going to discuss common sense, lets get in touch with the real world. Should it be determined that cheering on your player, or team, is considered to be "not using common sense" or "exhibiting unsportsmanlike" behavior, then I would like to suggest that all Sporting Events as we know them, would be banned. Consider the spectators at Basketball Games, Football games, Baseball games, etc. and the cheering AND booing that they do during the game......are they penalized in any way for showing enthusiasm for the team or player that they admire? No of course they are not. The whole idea of expecting players to sit placidly on the sidelines while watching their favorite team/player, is much more than ludicrous. Should a team exhibit Poor Sportsmanship by applauding or cheering a bad shot or bad roll of the competitor, then yes this would certainly be consider poor sportsmanship. But please tell me that none of you would seriously consider true enthusiasm and support of your team, player or friend to be considered poor sportsmanship. It boggles the mind that anyone would even go there. However, I have often seen people who lose their match, come to such unrealistic conclusions. The fact that anyone would think that if I cheer "my" player on, that it would take the opposing player out of their game is beyond my comprehension. If I am cheering my player for exhibiting good playing and using good skill, how is that affecting the other player? The other player is NOT at the table when this "exuberance" is displayed. Should I or my teammates choose to "jeer" our opponent, that would be a different matter, but it does not appear to me that this is what is being discussed here.
I am all for remembering that we should be in this for the "fun" of the game, but I don't think anyone goes into competition with any thought other than "I/We want to win". Cheering on good performance should never be penalized or even thought of in that context. If that were truly to be the case, then the room where the competition is taking place should have NO ONE in it except the competiting players, a score keeper for each team and the two coaches. Does anyone see a way to make that happen, or to even think it is practical. But, it is really the only way to accomplish what all of you are promoting in your comments.
Competing is tough. We are all under a great deal of pressure to perform. The tension is high as are the dissapointments. We shouldn't try to take the fun out of it. Instead we should go back to the spirit of the APA and encourage people to have fun, laugh, cheer and participate. I for one, love participating in the APA. I do my best to respect my teammates as well as my opponets. But never, in the 10+ years that I have played, have I ever thought that anyone would suggest that I "curb my enthusiasm" (sorry for the pun, but it just fit perfectly.[/font=Tahoma]
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tfire
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2005 : 10:46:11 AM
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Taz,
What your advocating is great. It is also very consistent with the rule change proposed in the thread two spots below this one titled
"What if someone causes you to foul?".
Just a thought: If we should use common sense, and we should, should we also expect the authors of our rule book to do the same when formulating rules? Giving a player a Ball In Hand because some jerk (or non-jerk) whacked his/her opponent's stick into the cueball, well that just doesn't seem like a rule based in common sense. Resetting ball positions would not only make more sense, it would also be consistent with when object balls are bumped accidentally by anyone. Doesn't "common sense" also support the notion that while a player can do his/her best to be aware of their surroundings and avoid those situations that might cause a foul, that same player cannot control the actions of other people once they are leaning over the table to shoot?
So let's change the rule, what do you say? 
PS. I think this forum is great for players to let out their true feelings. It's either this or we can all put on straight jackets and football helmets then beat our heads against the wall. LOL! 
quote:
Originally posted by Taz
I like to point out something that seems to be lacking or missing (Page 2 Official APA Team Manual)
"Relax, enjoy yourself and play within the Spirit of the Rules as well as the written rule......Common sense must prevail. Teams that try to gain advantage by creating their own interpretations are subject to sportsmanship violations. Win at the table not from the chair...That's what this League is about."
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Edited by - tfire on 06/11/2005 10:49:03 AM |
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Kerry Randolph
USA
172 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2005 : 1:53:08 PM
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Any comments on any topic in any forum can be taken to the extreme and made look ridiculous. This is what Abales did. Not once did I mention taking the fun out of the APA or did I mention that cheering for you player is wrong in any way. Nor did I mention that a penalty should apply. All I was saying was if a team or an individual takes cheering too far, even though it could still be considered support for their player it can create an uncomfortable situation for everyone involved including the players at the table.
The last time I checked none of the APA players are professional. To compare us to professional athletes and the situations involving fans is absolutly ridiculous if not stupid. Nobody is paying to watch us play, and most of us did not dedicate our lifes to make millions playing pool.
If you will reread the post I made you will see the words like excessive, intimidating, and obnoxious. The last line reads "just something to keep in mind while you play" So take it however you want. I always try to promote fun and fair play. |
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abales
4 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2005 : 8:57:01 PM
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| Well, I must say Kerry, you have a strange way of Promoting "fun and fair play" if you feel that cheering on your team is in any way directed negatively at the opponent. Also, I totally appreciate your use of the word "stupid" in your response. What a respectful and adult way to react to someone sharing their opinion. NOT!!!! What a "sportsmanlike" thing to do. NOT!!!! Besides which, those of us who were there last weekend and those of us who have been privy to the emails directed at a particular team captain regarding this subject, know exactly what your purpose was. My guess is that you were very much aware that I was responding not only to your comments but to the many invalid statements and accusations that have been made during the past week. We also know that a PENALTY has been discussed, up to and including the possible disqualification of a team whose players were very supportive of their team. Please keep in mind that your comments regarding the fact that we are not professional atheletes and that we don't get paid millions to play, really has nothing to do with the matter at all. I guess you couldn't see the point, which is that at a sporting event of any kind, if there are spectators, you should expect that there will be cheering, etc. In our particular case, our teammates are spectators. It is too bad that anyone has made it through this terrific event, having worked very hard to make it through, only to have some of the "fun and excitement" taken away by all the hullabaloo over their exuberance. |
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Kerry Randolph
USA
172 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2005 : 10:58:06 PM
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O.K. first off I don't know of any emails sent to any captain. Second there is no way the team that was being looked at for disqualification was the team I reffered to in my first post about being too exuberant at regionals. The team I was reffering to was not that bad. So I don't know anything about any of that. Third off why don't you identify yourself instead of just using a screen name?
Again you took my statement way too far. I never said that people could not support their player in any fashion they see fit. I was just saying that their are others around that might not appreciate someone with a big mouth. Also If you believe that any amount of cheering, yelling, hollering, woof woofing, or any type of verbal support no matter how loud, frequent or obnoxious it is does not negatively effect the people around them (and that can include their own team mates) than you need to step back and get a reality check. If this is your brand of fun than have at it. I would not pretend to be able to stop or even reason with someone like that. I was just bringing up a point. I guess I hit a nerve. |
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abales
4 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2005 : 09:06:40 AM
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Yes my team was, and still is, being challenged on this subject, so yes a nerve has been hit. My final and last comment on the subject will be: During a game where my team was being extremely entusiastic in their support of the match "I" was playing, my opponent said to me, "I wish my team was as enthusiastic and supportive of me while I am playing. It makes it a lot easier when your out here by yourself". Her comment was in reference to the fact that during normal league play we can sit with our team and we can feel the support throughout the match, whereas in the higher level tournaments we are on our own. My team was finding a way to continue the support that we would normally feel on league night even though we couldn't actually sit together. Never once, throughout the entire two days did the captain of any team speak with our captain about the noise level or anything else. That, as all APA members know, would be the best way to handle a situation where you feel things have gone beyond reasonable. However, in this case, everything happened AFTER the fact. The implications that have been made are completely out-of-line. If anyone felt we were creating a problem (including the people leading the tournament) something should have been said at the event. Our team never took any of their cheering, hooting, hollering, whatever, out of our own space (meaning we did not get into the opposing teams space), nor did we express our enthusiasm during an opponents play. However, I will stick to my original opinion, that we did nothing wrong (nothing intimidating or obnoxious) and that being asked to "Curb Our Enthusiasm" would have been wrong then, as it still is today. PS. My screen name is my personal choice, as are the many of other screen names used on this website. Pretty much a non issue.
I plan to continue enjoying APA play, as I have for more than 10 years, and I plan to continue being as enthusiastic and supportive of my team members as I can be. |
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BigSi
New Zealand
16 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2005 : 2:31:37 PM
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| abales, to retort to your posting perhaps you have never witnessed a snooker match, they promote very strict audience conduct, which includes the removal of any spectator who fails to abide by said rules. Snooker, which in my opinion is the ultimate of all the billiard games is played in almost silence, often faint and short gestures of appraisal are all that are needed and jeering when a player commits a mistake is not only severely frowned upon but shows the offending individual has..... well, to deam a better term, NO CLASS, cheering at the misfortune of others makes you no better than a piece of crap. Just because other sports allow fans to get loud and obnoxius does not mean that it is the correct behavior to display, one of our many flaws is that we live in a society that adores ****ting apon each other, everything we do in life should be respectful, but that's just my opinion. |
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ginger
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2005 : 6:07:30 PM
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I was just wondering how this topic became so personal and so ugly. All that was said to begin with is something that we all, as adults, should know and keep in mind. Yes, at times we might need to be reminded to use some common sense.
Can't we all just have fun 
* tfire, that straight jacket head banging thing could be fun to watch LOL
<font color="red">-ginger</font id="red">
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tfire
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2005 : 08:58:30 AM
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Ginger,
From my experience (as limited as it may be) people usually get personal when they are insecure about something and feel threatened. Making personal attacks is far more a reflection of the attacker than the attacked.
Email,cyber forums, etc. are mediums that make it difficult for participants to discern intent. People often find implications where the writer never intended one, and they miss points the writer wanted to emphasize. Thus the attacks ensue followed by the counter-attacks and viola there you have it; the genesis of a fight.
For anyone who is reading this who cares, I do have some advice to follow that may help you deal with with this problem. It might even prevent you from giving in to the temptation to counter-attack.
Try taking the mentality that you care more about being clear about what you want to say, and having a clear understanding of the person you are having the discussion with. This forces you to ask questions and reconsider how your words will be received. If you care more about being clear than about making the person agree with you, you will have gone a long way towards actually persuading someone towards your point of view, believe it or not!
----- straight jacket and helmet on ------ 
quote:
Originally posted by ginger
I was just wondering how this topic became so personal and so ugly. All that was said to begin with is something that we all, as adults, should know and keep in mind. Yes, at times we might need to be reminded to use some common sense.
Can't we all just have fun
* tfire, that straight jacket head banging thing could be fun to watch LOL
<font color="red">-ginger</font id="red">
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Edited by - tfire on 06/13/2005 09:22:15 AM |
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Kerry Randolph
USA
172 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2005 : 09:36:21 AM
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| Abales if you will do me a favor and email me directly I would like to chat with you about what happened at regionals. I had no Idea it was your team under investigation. my address is bowlingguy800@hotmail.com |
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Taz
USA
555 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2005 : 09:40:57 AM
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| There was a team "under investigation"???? Wow! News to me. |
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tfire
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2005 : 10:03:14 AM
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Simon,
When reading your post several points come to mind.
1) Whether you feel Snooker is a superior game or not we're simply not playing Snooker. As a matter of fact, outside of using balls, cue sticks and tables (all of very different sizes I might add) APA pool has almost nothing in common with Snooker. Not to mention Snooker is played almost entirely in a different country and culture, as you're fully aware.
2) The APA does not promote "very strict audience conduct" as is the case with Snooker. The APA decided to add a relatively new nuance to the game of billiards; as a Team Sport. It's within the APA template that we play, no others. I for one find this to be one of the most appealing aspects of the APA; the encouragement of a TEAM atmosphere, taking emphasis away from the individual.
3) Jeering at other player's misfortune is more than frowned upon in the APA. We are not permitted to taunt players, or otherwise rub their misfortune in their faces. I believe it's even covered in the rule book under "sharking". (?)
4) Nonetheless you may still cheer for your teammates. This reflects a good team rapport and healthy team spirit. Some teams do, some don't. But it's entirely up to them as individuals and teams. Personally I find the teams that actively cheer for their teammates to be stronger teams, more inclined to consider the team before themselves. But that's just my experience.
5) There is a discernable difference between a "jeer" as you put it, and a cheer. One is an effort to taunt and the other is an expression of pleasure and encouragement towards a teammate's opportunity.
6) In any contest one player's misfortune is typically, inherently another contestant's fortune. So if we're allowed to cheer for our teammate we're inherently cheering for the misfortune of the other. Reality sucks, but hey nobody said life was going to be fair.
7) As far as calling someone/anyone a "piece of crap" or accusing them of having no class, I think you've weakened your credibility when it comes to this argument. After all, calling someone names only demonstrates a behavior that, one could argue, is worse than "jeering". It certainly seems a bit inconsistent for you to take this approach in the same breath that you insist we conduct ourselves a cetain way at the pool table. Perhaps a little restraint is in order and the invectives would be better left out.
This should be about the issues at hand, not the personal stuff. Let's remain civil.
Tim
quote:
Originally posted by BigSi
abales, to retort to your posting perhaps you have never witnessed a snooker match, they promote very strict audience conduct, which includes the removal of any spectator who fails to abide by said rules. Snooker, which in my opinion is the ultimate of all the billiard games is played in almost silence, often faint and short gestures of appraisal are all that are needed and jeering when a player commits a mistake is not only severely frowned upon but shows the offending individual has..... well, to deam a better term, NO CLASS, cheering at the misfortune of others makes you no better than a piece of crap. Just because other sports allow fans to get loud and obnoxius does not mean that it is the correct behavior to display, one of our many flaws is that we live in a society that adores ****ting apon each other, everything we do in life should be respectful, but that's just my opinion.
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Edited by - tfire on 06/13/2005 10:18:59 AM |
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tfire
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2005 : 10:20:26 AM
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LOL - must be "double secret probation". I heard about you meanies in the League Office. [teasing of course]
Tim
quote:
Originally posted by Taz
There was a team "under investigation"???? Wow! News to me.
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Jeff5
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2005 : 11:30:24 AM
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| I joined this league because everyone in it seemed to get along so great. Overall I think that in this league we all have a great time when we are playing. Some players and or teams have better times than others...hehe! We are all fighting for the same goals here. For the teams that is to win to go on to regionals and then nationals. Players to get patches and win individual events. ie top shooters. I guess all that I can really say is lets have fun and be professional at the same time! |
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Common Sense
