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Kerry Randolph
USA
172 Posts |
 Posted - 06/13/2005 : 11:44:17 AM
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| Taz I am sorry for the misquote. I said there was a team under investigation. I assumed since you stated in the thread under 9-ball winners that there was a possible DQ situation you would be checking into that situation. I mistakenly said an investigation. I appologize for the mistake. |
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2005 : 2:31:59 PM
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Warning - this may be a long post. I don't know yet, I'm just starting. 
First of all, the post that started this thread had nothing to do with cheering. It was in reference to some of the recent threads in this forum concerning wording and application of some rules in the Team Manual. But since it evolved into a back-and-forth on enthusiasm and cheering, I will focus this reply on that issue and the corresponding posts. Specifically, the remainder of this reply is addressed to Abales.
Kerry's first reply in the thread was spot on. There is a difference between showing enthusiasm and being offensive or annoying. There are plenty of ways to cheer and display excitement that do not include profanity or loud animal noises. Even the animal noises can be tolerated, but not to the degree we witnessed during the 9-Ball event. Case in point, if we had a sportsmanship award for the Regionals it would have gone to Roadkill, whose cheering in the 8-Ball event was some of the loudest in either tournament. Nobody complained that they were being too loud or that they were offended by any of the cheering. In fact, the teams that played them commented on what a great attitude they had. One team, after getting knocked out of the tournament by Roadkill, stuck around and had a round of cocktails with them because they had so much fun during the match! It's not the cheering itself that gets on people's nerves, it's the presentation.
Compare the effect that Roadkill had on those around them with what happened during the semifinals of the 9-Ball tournament. Roadkill's cheering was a genuine, spontaneous display of enthusiasm and excitement in a manner that was not offensive to others. I think the key word is spontaneous, 100% in reaction to what was happening on their table. In the 9-Ball semifinals, that was not the case. The cheering in that round became a contest between members of two teams who weren't even playing on the same table to see who could bark the loudest and the most often. It was not spontaneous, it was two or three players trying to outdo each other. Several teams came up to us during that round and asked us not to assign them to a table next to these teams in the finals should they make it that far. Nobody said they were too enthusastic - the words most often used were "annoying" and "obnoxious".
In your first reply, you made a comparison with several other sports. That comparison breaks down in two ways. First, it's not the participants in those sports who are cheering and booing at the level to which you refer, it's the fans. And yes, there are sportsmanship penalties (called "unsportsmanlike conduct") in football when the particpants engage in what is termed "excessive celebration". Interestingly enough, one of the determining factors in what is considered "excessive" is the degree of spontaneity in the celebration. In addition, there are many sports where the use of profanity in any way may result in a sportsmanship PENALTY imposed upon the offender.
The second way the analogy breaks down is in the fact that the sports you mention are all single-contest sports. There's only one (baseball, basketball, whatever) game going on at that venue at the time. Consider other sports like golf and bowling, where there are a number of participants engaged in competition near the area where the cheering occurs. Where do you think the term "golf clap" comes from? Our events are more closely related to these sports, since we have as many as eight different matches occurring at the same time. While you might be vocal only when your player is at the table, there may be seven other players at the other tables too, and I don't think it's wrong to ask you to be considerate of those players. Here's the kicker - nobody on the team screams or barks when your own player is in mid-stroke. Why not? You don't want to break his concentration. Is it not reasonable to ask you to consider the concentration of the players playing matches around you as well?
Even in golf, where there's really only one competition in progress, the fans must be considerate of the other players on the course, and consider when it's ok to let out that cheer. Every time Tiger Woods swings his driver, there's some guy in the gallery who has to shout "You da man!!!". That person is not just showing his enthusiasm and excitement, he's trying to be heard on TV. What do you think would happen if a fan shouted like that in the middle of Tiger's backswing instead of waiting until the ball was struck? That fan would be escorted off the course, sporting a brand new necklace made out of Tiger's driver. So yes, fans do get penalized at times, not for a display of enthusiasm and excitement, but for the improper manner in which that enthusiasm is displayed.
In your second reply you mention an email directed at your captain. Though I normally consider email to be private, you allude to it in the context of enthusiasm and cheering, when in fact there was no mention of that at all in the email, so I've pasted the text of that original email here, for all to see:
We were just messing with the teams. We weren't actually pursuing a DQ. However, we were disappointed in some of the behavior displayed during the finals. For one thing, the difference between (Great 7)'s knowledge and (Pretty Good 7)'s knowledge isn't going to help anyone but (Pretty Good 7). Second, why should you care who keeps score if it's properly kept? Third, and this is the big one, Taz was deeply offended when XXXXXX put his arm around her and made a "humping" motion outside on the patio. I know he didn't mean anything by it but to her it was disgusting and he owes her a big apology.
XXXXXX came to the office THAT DAY and apologized to Taz, and that was that. Where are "the many invalid statements and accusations that have been made" to which you refer? If need be, I will post your captain's reply to me and the follow-up I sent her. Since that day (last Tuesday), there has been no further discussion regarding anything involving your team's behavior that weekend.
In your final and last comment on the subject you state:
The implications that have been made are completely out-of-line. If anyone felt we were creating a problem (including the people leading the tournament) something should have been said at the event.
Implications? We did feel the barking was creating a problem, and we did say something at the event, just before we called the final matches. In fact, it was something like "Be as enthusiastic and get as excited as you want, cheer as much as you want, but be considerate of those around you and don't bark. It's gone far enough, further barking may result in a ball-in-hand foul." As for the things that happened during the finals, we waited a couple of days to bring that up with your captain because we didn't want to ruin the moment for your team. If you have a problem with that, you should take it up directly with the people leading the tournament.
Phil
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tfire
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2005 : 5:10:08 PM
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Jeff, ABSOLUTELY!!! I agree that the way we approach this game, from our League Operators on down to every player, should be in such a way that makes us all better players. That's why I think we should do our best to adhere to the rules, not circumvent them when it's convenient for us. I also think we should do our best to suggest changes to those rules, as the game should evolve like all contests/sports. After all, somebody makes suggestions to change the rules, so why not have OUR say in it?
The discussions on this forum are a terrific avenue for change and clarification. I'm very happy that our League Operator provides it.
You hit the nail on the head Jeff!
quote:
Originally posted by Jeff5
I joined this league because everyone in it seemed to get along so great. Overall I think that in this league we all have a great time when we are playing. Some players and or teams have better times than others...hehe! We are all fighting for the same goals here. For the teams that is to win to go on to regionals and then nationals. Players to get patches and win individual events. ie top shooters. I guess all that I can really say is lets have fun and be professional at the same time!
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BigSi
New Zealand
16 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2005 : 5:57:26 PM
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| Tim, If you would please read my post again, your reply was not even close to the point I was trying to make/retort. Maybe I need to rewrite it if it was not clear? |
Edited by - BigSi on 06/14/2005 07:34:50 AM |
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Torsten
USA
401 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2005 : 11:53:40 AM
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| Timothy The whole cheering and having fun thing seems pretty cut and dry, doesn't it. It's why my team always has a great time when we play against you. Sometimes I think you guys cheer louder for a good shot by one of MY players than I do... and I get pretty enthusiastic. Now that I have mentioned that, I think cheering your opponent has gotten lost in this whole thing. (Kudos to Kristie Pruiett and the whole NOT YET team. I had a break and run and every player present on their team including my opponent Flip gave me a hi-5. you guys made me feel really good.) The whole jeering thing is just beyond me. I think it's really important to throw a thumbs-up or a hi-5 to your opponents when they make a good shot or a nice run. Who knows, you may even make a good friend or two along the way. By the way, whose turn is it on the irish carbombs??? |
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D-RACK
USA
321 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2005 : 12:09:43 PM
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 You all made pretty good points but unless you were at regiuonal you would not understand what ABALES is talking about. Kerry you should find out the hostility behind the post.
D-rack |
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tfire
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2005 : 12:34:00 PM
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Simon,
Well you actually made more than one point. I thought I addressed each of them and then some. If you could please be specific about where you feel my reply was not even close. I'd be happy to correct myself or adjust to a new understanding of how you really feel on the subject.
Thanks,
Tim
quote:
Originally posted by BigSi
Tim, If you would please read my post again, your reply was not even close to the point I was trying to make/retort. Maybe I need to rewrite it if it was not clear?
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tfire
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2005 : 1:00:00 PM
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Torsten,
It's confirmed, a cold Irish Carbomb is waiting for you the next time we play!
Your optimistic perspective on this matter is exactly what we should be emphasizing. The APA obviously provided us a rather unique and relatively new approach to the game of billiards. Team spirit and enthusiasm is encouraged without a doubt. We are playing to have fun. We are also playing to win. Cheering and rooting for your team is consistent with both of those aims.
There are certainly players that are hyper-sensitive to nearly any noise when having to concentrate on a shot. I'm sure some high school Quarterbacks don't move on to success because they can't concentrate with loud cheering crowds in their ears. However, by-in-large those players are overwhelmingly outnumbered by the players who have little trouble remaining focused on the table regardless of the noise around them. Those who have a difficult time focusing because the opposing team cheers when their player is at the table do not deserve special dispensation at the expense of the rest of us. After all, what about those people (like me) who are hypersensitive to twangy country music(haha). It screws up my concentration! Does that mean if I'm playing at the table I deserve to have the jukebox unplugged so that I can better concentrate? No. If the day ever comes that we get that silly about our sensitivities I will be finding another avenue for having fun on Monday nights. I trust in my League Operators and the APA to do the right thing in these cases.
Torsten, on our team we try to be enthusiastic for our team first, then the division(opponents) and then the league, in that order. We don't always achieve this, but we try. I'm glad to see the enthusiasm and esprit de corps spreading throughout our divisions as it should. NOT YET is a formidable team, in large part, because of the team strength they exhibit on league night.
For those of you like me who have to look these things up:
ESPRIT DE CORPS:
the common spirit existing in the members of a group and inspiring enthusiasm, devotion, and strong regard for the honor of the group
quote:
Originally posted by Torsten
Timothy The whole cheering and having fun thing seems pretty cut and dry, doesn't it. It's why my team always has a great time when we play against you. Sometimes I think you guys cheer louder for a good shot by one of MY players than I do... and I get pretty enthusiastic. Now that I have mentioned that, I think cheering your opponent has gotten lost in this whole thing. (Kudos to Kristie Pruiett and the whole NOT YET team. I had a break and run and every player present on their team including my opponent Flip gave me a hi-5. you guys made me feel really good.) The whole jeering thing is just beyond me. I think it's really important to throw a thumbs-up or a hi-5 to your opponents when they make a good shot or a nice run. Who knows, you may even make a good friend or two along the way. By the way, whose turn is it on the irish carbombs???
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Edited by - tfire on 06/15/2005 1:09:48 PM |
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tfire
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2005 : 1:12:54 PM
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This post was not started based on Abales & Kerry's conversation. It has evolved from what Taz wrote to cover the topic of the appropriateness of cheering in general. Kuddos to Taz for starting an important conversation.
Tim
quote:
Originally posted by D-RACK
You all made pretty good points but unless you were at regiuonal you would not understand what ABALES is talking about. Kerry you should find out the hostility behind the post.
D-rack
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tfire
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2005 : 2:08:12 PM
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Phil,
I will only reply to your general statements on this, not the specifics in relation to the abales situation.
I know that you've been the operator of this league for just a few years longer than I've been playing in it. I know that you know your job. I won't try to tell you how to do it.
1) Please keep in mind though. There is a temptation by many people today, to insist that just because they are "offended" (the buzzword) they should get something for it. Other people will chime in, in support of the "offended" party without considering the issues that may be more important than whether the person feels "offended" or not. This can carry over to a sort of automatic bias in favor of the "offended" party, thus disregarding what is really the best course of action for the greater good.
We all know that there is a fine line between what you might consider offensive behavior and what others might consider offensive behavior. But just because Player "A" is offended, does not and should not be a good enough reason to warrant a warning, foul, or a DQ, all by itself.
It may seem like I'm stating the obvious I'm sure, but when we continue to say that it's whether or not someone is offended (and that's it) by a certain behavior, we're only trying to appease people (squeaky wheel theory). It's at that point that we deviate from the spirit and intent of the rules. We're also dealing with an area that is rich in grays and lean in black & whites. The entire nature of feeling offended is very subjective.
My team happens to cheer a lot, as you know. I would hate to have to tell them one day that that they can't cheer for their team, JUST because our opponent(s) are offended and for no other reason.
2) This is more commentary than disagreement: It seems to be a very difficult position to be in, to have to tell teams when they can or can't cheer for their team so as to remain considerate of the teams around them that are playing. It forces teams to have to decide what is more important, the enthusiasm they want/need to impart on their teammate or the concentration level of the player at an unrelated match. If I have a player that needs confidence boosting I would be inclined to give them a cheer when they need it, regardless of other matches. I have a duty to be considerate of toher but I also have a duty to my teammates first (in my mind). I don't know, just interesting to think about...
Just the other night I played on a table next to another match with a certain player (shall remain nameless) that screamed when she made a ball she didn't expect to make. It scared the crap out of me. I'm kind of glad she did it because it forced me to think about the issue. My conclusion was that the best approach is to advise players on appropriate cheering, and that's about it. Even though I could have easily missed my shot if the scream was made at just the right wrong time, right behind me. I would rather take that risk than douse the fun for the players who show up to have a good time every week by enforcing a golf-like rule to a game we play in bars by-in-large. I guess you could argue that her good time is interfering with mine. But if I can't concentrate, I feel it's my responsibility for the most part. Now, if she threw her stick across the room on my table, that's a different story! 
Just my two cents...
Tim
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Edited by - tfire on 06/15/2005 2:17:52 PM |
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Taz
USA
555 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2005 : 3:13:51 PM
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Tim, you are incorrect. I did not start this post "to cover the topic of appropriateness of cheering in general". I started this post because, in my ever so humble opinion, there have been several discussions on this board (as well as the old one) with regard to the application of the "black & white" rule and the gray areas and a bunch of "what ifs" that were (again, in my opinion) getting so far fetched they became ridiculous. If you look back at my original post, the parts in bold are "play within the spirit of the rules", "common sense must prevail" and "win at the table not from the chair".
That a rule needs to be changed or reworded because those who simply read the "black & white" are unable or unwilling to use common sense, makes no sense to me. Specially when changing the rule could potentially open up a much bigger can of worms and would give room for a lot more disagreement between teams who want to play strictly by the "black & white" rules.
My position with regard to the "black & white" is this.....IF the captains on a given match cannot come to an agreement on how to resolve an issue thru compromise and negotiation, using common sense, that's when you should pull out the rule book or call the league office for a ruling. Weekly league play is supposed to be about having fun, not waving and thumping the rule book at one another. |
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2005 : 3:25:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by D-RACK
You all made pretty good points but unless you were at regiuonal you would not understand what ABALES is talking about. Kerry you should find out the hostility behind the post.
D-rack
Derrick, would you care to expand on what you mean by hostility?
Phil
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Taz
USA
555 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2005 : 3:27:22 PM
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Tim,
As to your comments with regard to cheering and what is or is not offensive, I know few people that would be okay and not take offense when an observer, instead of yelling out "great shot" chooses to yell out F**K YEAH at the top of their voice because their teammate made a ball. |
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Phil
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2005 : 4:20:41 PM
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Tim,
I'm not sure how your commentary qualified as a reply to my post. I think you may have read some things into it that I did not write.
Nobody ever told anyone NOT to cheer for their teammates. Cheering is good, excitement is good, exuberance is good. Supporting your team is good. What is not good is making loud noises just for the sake of making loud noises. You can claim "I'm just cheering for my teammate" or "I'm only doing it when my teammate is at the table", but you can't say it's completely spontaneous and unplanned when, immediately after doing it, you look over at the guy who's been doing it at the next table and smile. No, you're not just excited for your teammate, you're not just trying to provide support, you are behaving that way simply to draw attention to yourself. I am 100% certain that Abales' teammates would not have barked once had they not noticed the attention the other guy was getting with his barks.
Have you ever been to a sporting event and been seated next to the guy with the air horn? The first time he uses it, it seems kinda cool. After a while, the air horn gets pretty annoying and you just want to rip it from him and shove it up down his throat. He doesn't need the air horn to be excited or exuberant. He doesn't need it to cheer. He just needs it to draw attention to himself. That's what was going on that day.
When I mentioned offensive behavior in my reply to Abales, I was referring to the profanity in some of the cheering. Profanity has been considered offensive by a great many people for a very long time. Again, it's not the excitement we're trying to curb, it's the way in which that excitement is conveyed. What's wrong with asking someone to shout "Great shot!" instead of "Great f___ing shot!". Or "YES!!!" instead of "F__ YEAH!"? Are you less excited if you don't use profanity?
Abales, don't EVER curb your enthusiasm! Yours is genuine and its expression is appropriate. Those whose expression of enthusiasm is not entirely genuine or appropriate need to work on channeling their exuberance into more positive forms of exclamation.
Phil
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tfire
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2005 : 12:04:18 PM
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Taz,
Well, you didn't make your reasons for starting this thread clear in your opening post so it has taken a life of it's own, as threads often do. It doesn't matter though because it's sparked a good healthy debate.
I don't advocate the change in any rule because it's not applied correctly. I advocate the change in a rule because the rule itself is not a good rule. - in my opinion.
I still haven't read or heard a reasonable explanation for why a sitting player should receive the advantage of Ball In Hand because someone bumped the shooting player's stick into the cue ball.
It's the rule itself that is lacking in common sense. As for players who lack common sense, well we shouldn't be having this discussion in the first place because the rule should be changed to more accurately reflect a return to a fair contest after a foul committed by a spectator. There should be no undue advantage granted to players who are sitting in this circumstance. To borrow your direct quote "win at the table not from the chair". The rule that gives the sitting player a Ball In Hand due to a spectator causing a foul does just the opposite.
I don't know who waves and thumps rule books but I agree with you, that should not be happening.
That being said, would you please explain how the change I proposed would provide more ambiguity or chances for disagreement than the current rule? I don't understand how there would more chance for disagreement than there presently is. Perhaps I'm missing something.
Thanks,
Tim
quote:
Originally posted by Taz
Tim, you are incorrect. I did not start this post "to cover the topic of appropriateness of cheering in general". I started this post because, in my ever so humble opinion, there have been several discussions on this board (as well as the old one) with regard to the application of the "black & white" rule and the gray areas and a bunch of "what ifs" that were (again, in my opinion) getting so far fetched they became ridiculous. If you look back at my original post, the parts in bold are "play within the spirit of the rules", "common sense must prevail" and "win at the table not from the chair".
That a rule needs to be changed or reworded because those who simply read the "black & white" are unable or unwilling to use common sense, makes no sense to me. Specially when changing the rule could potentially open up a much bigger can of worms and would give room for a lot more disagreement between teams who want to play strictly by the "black & white" rules.
My position with regard to the "black & white" is this.....IF the captains on a given match cannot come to an agreement on how to resolve an issue thru compromise and negotiation, using common sense, that's when you should pull out the rule book or call the league office for a ruling. Weekly league play is supposed to be about having fun, not waving and thumping the rule book at one another.
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Edited by - tfire on 06/17/2005 12:22:24 PM |
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Common Sense
